Need help about uniform

[brunof62]

Hello everyone, I need information !

 

Apologize for my English language, I use Google translator .... 

I have just acquired it, dated 1916, where we can see, according to the legend: a group of British prisoners in a street from Avion (Hauts-de-France region).

 

Still, according to the caption, one can read RIR 75 (Reserve Regiment No. 75), which belonged to the 17th Reserve Division, 9th Army Corps (9 AK) whose men provided mainly from the districts of Schleswig-Holstein in Germany.

 

This allows me to date the photo quite precisely. Indeed, this regiment fought alongside the 162nd, 163rd and 76th RIR in the Givenchy-en-Gohelle and Liévin sectors from February 1916 until July 1916 before being sent to the Somme battlefield.

It is established that the French troops were relieved in this sector from February 21, 1916, following the offensive on Verdun.

What is anecdotal about this photo, is the non-regulatory nature of the uniform of the man on the left of the photo.

 

In addition to the appareance among the British troops, some of whom are wearing the British helmet, we note the presence of a soldier wearing a "french Adrian" helmet and a gallon of British-style sleeve (see the arrows). This seems to be uniform using in BEF, because, helmet+ uniform aren't accorded, characteristics which deserves to be reported !

 

It could be an officer whose helmet frontal attribute, seems to be one of those of the French pioneer troop ! (in french Génie) It might be an interpreter ?

 

Your comments, please !

 

Thanks 

 

Bruno 

[Alan24]

54 minutes ago, brunof62 said:

In addition to the appareance among the British troops, some of whom are wearing the British helmet, we note the presence of a soldier wearing a "french Adrian" helmet and a gallon of British-style sleeve (see the arrows). This seems to be uniform using in BEF, because, helmet+ uniform aren't accorded, characteristics which deserves to be reported !

His rank is Captain. It does look like he could be carrying a Brodie steel helmet in his right hand.

As at February 1916, the steel helmet would have been quite a new issue. At least one soldier has his steel helmet covered with hessian to reduce reflections of sunlight whilst in the trenches.

[FROGSMILE]

It might be the only steel helmet that was available, or perhaps given to him by a French comrade (officer).  I remember that Winston Churchill wore an Adrian helmet for a short time when he served in the trenches, but I cannot recall if he purchased it, or if it was presented to him by a French politician, or senior officer.

Edited 13 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

5 hours ago, Alan24 said:

...It does look like he could be carrying a Brodie steel helmet in his right hand...

I think that's the helmet of the man half out of shot on the viewers left carrying it in his left hand. 

If you look closely, it appears the officer in the Adrian helmet has had the original French badge replaced with his regimental badge, the Essex regiment or something similar, eg:

 

Edited 13 November , 2022 by Andrew Upton

[PRC]

The only other man with insignia that might give a clue as to the unit of these captured British prisoners is this soldier.

Difficult to make out put possibly a Light Infantry Regiment man?

Not sure of the geography, but there was a German attack near Berthonval sector on the 21st May 1916. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/battles-of-the-western-front-in-france-and-flanders/actions-in-the-spring-of-1916-western-front/

Map courtesy the Long, Long Trail.

British units facing them were the 47th (2nd London) Division, the 25th Division and in reserve the 2nd Division.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/47th-2nd-london-division/
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/25th-division/
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/2nd-division/

The 2nd Division included 2nd Battalion, the Ox & Bucks Light Infantry, 2nd Bn, the Highland Light Infantry, (both 5th Infantry Brigade).

But the narrative on the Long, Long Trail page doesn’t have the 5th Brigade involved and a check of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website shows no fatalities in the period of the 21st to the 24th May 1916 for either Battalion.

The British tried to counter-attack on the 23rd May 1916, but the Germans were alert and brought down a barrage on the assembling troops. One of the units on the British side was the 1st Battalion, Royal Berkshire Regiment. In terms of the units they were facing, that Battalions War Diary entry for the day starts “About 5 am the right of our line held by B Coy was heavily shelled causing them 18 casualties. In the morning about 11 am a German prisoner belonging to the 86th Prussian Rgt was captured and sent to Brigade Hqrs.” https://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/research/war-diaries/detail?id=643&regiment=1&day=23&month=5

So it may need someone with knowledge from the German side who can identify which units the 17th Reserve Division faced during their time in this area, or someone able to drill down on the British side. The Long, Long Trail in it’s piece on this action notes:-

 “In early May, German artillery and trench mortar fire -a natural response to British aggression – began to intensify. Front line trenches were very badly damaged, and communication trenches also became targets. All the signs were that an infantry attack could be expected. But aerial observation revealed nothing of significance. Five British divisions were ordered to move from First, Second and Third Armies to add to the build up of strength under Fourth Army, for the forthcoming Somme offensive. This meant some shuffling of Divisions and some adjustment of the areas under command of Armies and Corps. On the night 19-20 May 1916, this added up to a considerable change in the area of Berthonval (south of Souchez, facing Vimy Ridge). It passed from the command of Third Army to First, and from XVII Corps (Julian Byng) to IV Corps (Henry Wilson).”

Le seul homme avec des insignes qui pourrait donner un indice quant à l'unité de ces prisonniers britanniques capturés est cet homme.

Difficile de distinguer éventuellement un homme du régiment d'infanterie légère ?

Pas sûr de la géographie, mais il y a eu une attaque allemande près du secteur de Berthonval le 21 mai 1916. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/battles-of-the-western-front-in-france-and-flanders/actions-in-the-spring-of-1916-western-front/

Carte reproduite avec l'aimable autorisation du Long, Long Trail.

Les unités britanniques qui leur faisaient face étaient la 47e division (2e Londres), la 25e division et en réserve la 2e division.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/47th-2nd-london-division/
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/25th-division/
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/2nd-division/

La 2e division comprenait le 2e bataillon, l'infanterie légère Ox & Bucks, le 2e bataillon, l'infanterie légère Highland, (tous deux de la 5e brigade d'infanterie).

Mais le récit sur la page Long, Long Trail n'implique pas la 5e brigade et une vérification du site Web de la Commonwealth War Graves Commission ne montre aucun décès entre le 21 et le 24 mai 1916 pour l'un ou l'autre bataillon.

Les Britanniques tentent de contre-attaquer le 23 mai 1916, mais les Allemands sont vigilants et font barrage sur les troupes qui se rassemblent. L'une des unités du côté britannique était le 1er bataillon du Royal Berkshire Regiment. En ce qui concerne les unités auxquelles ils étaient confrontés, cette entrée du journal de guerre des bataillons pour la journée commence  «Vers 5 heures du matin, la droite de notre ligne tenue par la compagnie B a été lourdement bombardée, leur faisant 18 victimes. Le matin vers 11 heures, un prisonnier allemand appartenant au 86e Rgt prussien a été capturé et envoyé au siège de la brigade. https://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/research/war-diaries/detail?id=643&regiment=1&day=23&month=5

Il peut donc avoir besoin de quelqu'un ayant des connaissances du côté allemand qui peut identifier les unités auxquelles la 17e division de réserve a été confrontée pendant son séjour dans cette zone, ou quelqu'un capable de creuser du côté britannique. The Long, Long Trail dans son article sur cette action note: -

 « Début mai, les tirs d'artillerie et de mortier de tranchée allemands - une réponse naturelle à l'agression britannique - ont commencé à s'intensifier. Les tranchées de première ligne ont été très gravement endommagées et les tranchées de communication sont également devenues des cibles. Tous les signes laissaient présager une attaque d'infanterie. Mais l'observation aérienne n'a rien révélé d'important. Cinq divisions britanniques reçurent l'ordre de se déplacer des première, deuxième et troisième armées pour renforcer le renforcement de la quatrième armée, pour la prochaine offensive de la Somme. Cela signifiait un certain remaniement des divisions et un certain ajustement des zones sous le commandement des armées et des corps. Dans la nuit du 19 au 20 mai 1916, cela s'ajoute à un changement considérable dans le secteur de Berthonval (au sud de Souchez, face à la crête de Vimy). Il est passé du commandement de la Troisième Armée à la Première, et du XVII Corps (Julian Byng) au IV Corps (Henry Wilson).

Merci, Google Translate

Peter

[Michelle Young]

This man appears to be wearing black buttons. Il porte les boutons noir. 

[brunof62]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Not sure of the geography, but there was a German attack near Berthonval sector on the 21st May 1916

Hello all 

Thank you, everyone, for your very informative responses. The German attack of May 21st, 1916 on the ridges located between the localities of Givenchy-en-Gohelle and Vimy could correspond! Regarding the possible itinerary taken by these British prisoners under German escort. It would be logically the most direct, they go through the Komprinzenlager (1 ), see photo at Givenchy/vimy cross road, then Avion road = Road 55 (2) in the direction of La Coulotte (3) with its famous brewery and castle( see pictures), then Avion (4) in main street, where prisoners were photographed!

Cordialement

Bruno