Unknown large rose badge - Officer Cadet training unit?

[max7474]

Can any one shed any idea on this cap badge.  3.5cm across on a slider.  An OCTU has been suggested as a possible candidate.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, max7474 said:

Can any one shed any idea on this cap badge.  3.5cm across on a slider.  An OCTU has been suggested as a possible candidate.

An interesting one Max.  I don’t think it’s an OCB.  If not wearing regimental insignia they usually had a simple number on caps, often in cloth.  The Yorkshire Dragoons (Yeomanry) had the white metal rose, but invariably surmounted by a crown.  A plain rose is used as headdress insignia of Lords Lieutenants and their deputies and staff in all English Counties, so perhaps it’s something to do with that.

Edited 12 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

Lord Lieutenants badges were embroidered and still worn today.  I have never seen a LL photo with anything other than the fine quality embroidered badge. on khaki or blues hats.  This is ORs.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, max7474 said:

Lord Lieutenants badges were embroidered and still worn today.  I have never seen a LL photo with anything other than the fine quality embroidered badge. on khaki or blues hats.  This is ORs.

 

 

Yes I do realise that Max, I should have mentioned the bullion badge and its primary status for the LL (with crown) and DLL (without crown) uniform.  I was thinking perhaps for something like a drivers cap back in the past and just speaking thoughts out loud.  I don’t think it’s military without a crown, but am keeping an open mind.

The white metal aspect suggests a specific connection with Yorkshire.

Edited 12 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

I did consider Hampshire cadets but I think that would be more appropriate in brass.  I think I can rule out any LL connection at the moment so I wonder if it has a cadet connection - either pre WW1 or early WW1 or 1930-2 when some county cadets had to adopt their own badges when they lost funding and the right to wear army insignia.  Alas cadet badges of both periods are very badly recorded.

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, max7474 said:

I did consider Hampshire cadets but I think that would be more appropriate in brass.  I think I can rule out any LL connection at the moment so I wonder if it has a cadet connection - either pre WW1 or early WW1 or 1930-2 when some county cadets had to adopt their own badges when they lost funding and the right to wear army insignia.  Alas cadet badges of both periods are very badly recorded.

Yes I agree about Hampshire and also Lancashire/Lancaster (plus Coldstream Guards shoulder titles) favoured gilt metal, with half and half in bimetal preferred by the York and Lancaster Regiment.  One link I can find is in connection with the 1st pattern arm badge of the 49th (West Riding) Infantry Division, but a slider doesn’t fit for that purpose.

I don’t believe for a second that cadet units would have received a rose cap badge without a crown.  I have a comprehensive manual (author Keith Rawlings) for cadet badges and will check.

Edited 12 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Max I found zillions of cadet badges without crowns where their insignia is based on a school crest.  
Just one was a plain rose, but it’s in gilt and for the Peter Symonds School OTC in Hampshire.  Keith Rawlings’s manual claims to be exhaustive, but who knows perhaps he’s missed one as you say.  Maybe @CorporalPunishmentcan throw some light on it. 

Edited 12 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

K&K Vol 2 show  Queen Mary's Guildford cadets as a brass rose which is plan and no crown so their is precedence for a single rise to be worn as a cap badge.

[max7474]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Max I found zillions of cadet badges without crowns where their insignia is based on a school crest.  
Just one was a plain rose, but it’s in gilt and for the Peter Symonds School OTC in Hampshire.  Keith Rawlings’s manual claims to be exhaustive, but who knows perhaps he’s missed one as you say.  Maybe @CorporalPunishmentcan throw some light on it. 

Keith Rawlings got that one very wrong as Peter Symonds wore the Hants cap badge as recorded in 1937 by EJ Martin and I have photos of the Peter Symonds OTC wearing the Hants cap badge.  I suspect that the plain rose was Hants cadets 1930-2 which is why Guildford Cadet corps wore it according to K&K. I can't prove it yet but I suspect the cadet corps wore Hants prior to that and after it.

[max7474]

This is a screenshot of Peter Symonds school cadets.  Definitely the  Hants Regt cap badge.  In 1935 they became an OTC but prior to that they were a Cadet Corps.  The badge did not change.

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, max7474 said:

Keith Rawlings got that one very wrong as Peter Symonds wore the Hants cap badge as recorded in 1937 by EJ Martin and I have photos of the Peter Symonds OTC wearing the Hants cap badge.  I suspect that the plain rose was Hants cadets 1930-2 which is why Guildford Cadet corps wore it according to K&K. I can't prove it yet but I suspect the cadet corps wore Hants prior to that and after it.

To be fair to Keith Rawlings he lists the brass rose backed by a white plastic disc as just one of several pieces of insignia worn by Peter Symonds School as it transitioned through OTC, JTC and CCF.  Perhaps it was a stage when they were no longer supported by the War Office as you mentioned earlier.  The manual is extensive but an amateurish layout and print that does not make it the most user friendly.

Hampshire cadet battalions (x6 at one point) are listed separately and at various times included a range of schools.  Regimental insignia worn throughout, including shoulder titles.

Putting Peter Symonds to one side, the purpose of this thread, the white rose, remains to be determined.

Edited 12 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

In light of the Hants cadet rose, I think cadets remain a contender.  perhaps with the white rose it is Yorkshire.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, max7474 said:

In light of the Hants cadet rose, I think cadets remain a contender.  perhaps with the white rose it is Yorkshire.

Yes I think you might be right, although as yet I can find no evidence whatsoever. 

[max7474]

No unfortunately I have several Cadet Corps cap badges of which I have found only 1 or 2 photos of them in use and a couple where there are no photos of them at all.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, max7474 said:

No unfortunately I have several Cadet Corps cap badges of which I have found only 1 or 2 photos of them in use and a couple where there are no photos of them at all.

They might be in Keith Rawlings manual (which is designed and intended for collectors rather than historians), but need cross referencing with Ray Westlake’s excellent compendium listing cadet units affiliated with auxiliary units straddling the war. 

[max7474]

I find the contemporary Army lists (Scottish library is a good free online resource) the best for the WW1 era cadet units.  The list is huge and many existed only for the duration of the war.  Rawlins is flawed and has several glaring errors where he misattributes badges.  I would agree that Westlake is a much finer piece of work.   The difficulty with the 1930-2 period is that the cadet units were outside the War department so there are no official records or sealed patterns.

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, max7474 said:

I find the contemporary Army lists (Scottish library is a good free online resource) the best for the WW1 era cadet units.  The list is huge and many existed only for the duration of the war.  Rawlins is flawed and has several glaring errors where he misattributes badges.  I would agree that Westlake is a much finer piece of work.   The difficulty with the 1930-2 period is that the cadet units were outside the War department so there are no official records or sealed patterns.

Yes I think that you've summarised the realities very well Max.

[KENDO]

Hi Max,

Don't know if this helps.

Best regards,

Kendo

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, KENDO said:

Hi Max,

Don't know if this helps.

Best regards,

Kendo

That’s the East Lancashire Regiments collar badge, used by them for many years.  In gilding metal for other ranks, and red silk and bullion wire for officers (later gilt metal with red enamel). 

Edited 13 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

This is the design of cap badge that K&K attribute to Queen Mary's School Basingstoke rather than Peter Symonds.  My theory is that it may have been used by Hants Cadets 1930-2 which would include the school cadets. 

 

Edited 6 July , 2023 by max7474

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, max7474 said:

This is the design of cap badge that K&K attribute to Peter Symonds School.  As they had a cadet force affiliated to the Hants Regt and WW2 and later photos show the Hants cat and cabbage badge in use, my theory is that it may have been used by Hants Cadets 1930-2 which would include the school cadets.

It’s certainly a possibility, as we’ve discussed throughout this thread Max.  Cadets are particularly inconsistent for a variety of reasons, and the Rose was used for so many units and purposes across the Army and its associated organisations.  It makes for quite pleasing insignia I think, especially if worn on a contrasting disc, although I realise that was limited to just a few instances.

Edited 6 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

It would be nice to find a picture of it in use but I fear that being Cadet Corps a photo might be rather scarce.

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, max7474 said:

It would be nice to find a picture of it in use but I fear that being Cadet Corps a photo might be rather scarce.

Yes I agree.  Unfortunately the school was closed in 1970 (merged and now The Vine Community School), so it’s probably only alma maters and their families that might have photographs, plus so many generations have passed now that I doubt they would understand what they were looking at, let alone the finer points of insignia patterns.

Edited 6 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE