Fl. S/Lt T.B. Holmes - Dates of Service (1917) with No 10 Sqdn RNAS ?

[Dominion-of-the-North]

Colleagues:

I am having difficulty nailing down the dates which Flight Sub-Lieut Thomas Byron HOLMES served with No. 10 Squadron, RNAS,  I have his ledger sheets from the National Archives, Kew, a small extract of which I have reproduced below. As on can see, there is no specific reference to 10 Squadron, (despite other evidence indicate he served in 10 Sqdn).

Should I assume that the period indicated as "Dover" (in the red box, second image) reflects his time with 10 Squadron?

I should point out that I do not think he had much of a combat flying career, since his ledger sheet also notes (in a remark dated 9 Aug 1917): " ...this officer cannot fly at heights required for active service flying", eventually (Nov 1917) being found "constitutionally unfit for flying duties", then being demobilised in Jan 1918.

That said, I would still like to discover the dates he actually served with No 10 Sqdn with an idea to trying to ascertain what (little?) he might have done with them in terms of operations.

Cheers,

Glen,

In Our Dominion of the North

[horatio2]

10 Squadron RNAS was  never based at Dover (or Calshot).

[topgun1918]

Dover and Calshot were seaplane stations and HMS Engadine was a seaplane tender; I think it fair to say that Holmes was never at No 10 Sqn RNAS which was at Droglandt from 15 May 1917, Leffrinckhoucke from 5 October and Teteghem from 20 November until 29 March 1918.

Graeme

 

[George Rayner]

4 hours ago, Dominion-of-the-North said:

(despite other evidence indicate he served in 10 Sqdn).

What could that be then? Could you enlighten us?

George

[George Rayner]

It doesn't answer your question but there is a Pension Card for him.

https://www.fold3.com/image/689397406

George

 

[George Rayner]

A little bit of digging in Canada brings the information...perhaps it will help the experts in the field

George

 

 

[horatio2]

Thank you, George.

That Canadian record gives us an interesting appointing pattern: Between 26 June and 7 August 1917 he apparently served at Dover (no squadron stated), with No.12 (Naval) Squadron in France and with No.10 (Naval) Squadron in France attached to No.22 Wing RFC. A busy six weeks (if correct)! 

Edited 7 November , 2022 by horatio2

[George Rayner]

Very busy indeed.

George

[Dominion-of-the-North]

First of all, I must extend my sincere gratitude to fellow GWF Members for your invaluable assistance in helping me with my request.  George's find is like gold dust to me. I had no idea Holmes had also served in No 12 Sqdn RNAS. Thank you.

That said, given all of his bouncing around, one wonders if he ever really had a chance to make a meaningful contribution to either Nos 10 or 12 Sqdn,  (ie., in terms of operations).

Interestingly, in later years he seems to have forgotten (or chosen not to mention) his service with No 12 Squadron RNAS, as indicated in his University Year Book write up (1920) and his (much later in life) entries into The Canadian Who's Who.  (See images below).

Thank you, once again for your continuing assistance.  I can assure you it is much appreciated.

Cheers,

Glen

In Our Dominion of the North

 

 

 

 

 

 

[George Rayner]

That makes me wonder if you have seen his service records in the Canadian archive?

George

[Dominion-of-the-North]

FYI, the Official History of the "Canadians in the Air Services" in the Great War (by S.F. Wise, 1980) mentions Holmes in a footnote as having been a member of No. 10 Squadron RNAS.

 

[Tawhiri]

26 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

That makes me wonder if you have seen his service records in the Canadian archive?

Not seeing an obvious match in the Canadian archives, the only mention of his name that comes up seems to be linked to the awarding of imperial gratuities, but it is unfortunately not digitized.

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=632464

 

[Dominion-of-the-North]

11 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

That makes me wonder if you have seen his service records in the Canadian archive?

George

Fair point.

There are two most-regularly consulted sources of information on such personnel within Library and Archives Canada:

• the so-called "Admin File" kept by the RCN; and
• a table compiled at the end of the War entitled "Canadians Directly Recruited into the Air Services as Cadets" (as opposed to those who transferred from either the CEF or RCN).

I have found the former, an extract of which is reproduced below.  Unfortunately it seems to be simply a repetition of the postings and appointments section of the RNAS Ledger Sheet reproduced above.

I have requested the "Admin File", but was told it was checked-out and I would have to wait some time to get access to it.  That said, although I certainly intend to consult it, I do not hold out too much hope that any additional, meaningful details of Holmes' overseas service will be in it, since based upon my previous consultations of that class of files, they deal almost exclusively with a candidate's pilot qualification training, (in Canada), prior to being accepted by the RNAS.  But as Alexander Pope reminded us: hope springs eternal.

Cheers,

Glen,

In Our Dominion of the North

[Dominion-of-the-North]

17 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

Not seeing an obvious match in the Canadian archives, the only mention of his name that comes up seems to be linked to the awarding of imperial gratuities, but it is unfortunately not digitized.

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=632464

 

Thanks very much for that... not quite sure how I missed it... but clearly I did!

FYI, the "Admin File" I was referring to is:  RG24, Acc: 1992-93/169 GAD, Box: 99, File: 7-4-3-H-50 (WWI RCN Svc File of T.B. Holmes)

which is currently not available.

I shall certainly check-out the Imperial Gratuities file -- hopefully very soon, (since I happen to work a stone's throw from the National Archives of Canada ;-)

Cheers,

Glen,

In Our Dominion of the North

[Dominion-of-the-North]

6 hours ago, George Rayner said:

It doesn't answer your question but there is a Pension Card for him.

https://www.fold3.com/image/689397406

George

 

I guess I had better bight the bullet and expand my Ancestry subscription!  (Thank very much for the above link.)

I suppose his Pension Card must be linked to his invaliding, in Jan 1918, which accords with the issuance of a "Class AA" War Service Badge by Canadian Naval Authorities, as per the images below. (Note the number on the reverse of the badge --  930 -- a relatively low number.)

Cheers,

Glen,

In Our Dominion of the North

 

 

[George Rayner]

Here is the Gratuity file

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/9149/images/42585_83024005508_0224-00877?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=26fbccd439b2a8d4d8d29a21504db7c8&usePUB=true&_phsrc=hZE5799&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=298637

Name:	Thos B Holmes
Registration Date:	2 Jan 1920
Registration Place:	Canada
Inferred Residence Year:	1920
Residence Place:	Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Military Rank:	F.Sub-Lieut
Regiment:	Royal Naval Air Service
Beneficiary:	T B Holmes

It is digitised in Ancestry-normal subscription should allow it

George

[topgun1918]

Having looked further into both his Officers' Record (AIR 76/235/73) and Admiralty record (ADM 273/12/167) - both downloadable free from The National Archives - there is no mention of him serving with either of the RNAS squadrons that have been mentioned.  In particular, his Admiralty file, after recording on 9 August 1917 his lack of ability to fly at the heights required for operational service, states that he was admitted to Chatham Hospital suffering with Neurasthenia for a period of three weeks on 7 November, was discharged to Mount Vernon Hospital on 12 November; on 9 December he was 'surveyed' by the Admiralty and deemed constitutionally unfit for flying duties, fit for ground duties.  On 6 January 1918 the record notes "Submitted that Commission may be terminated as it is not desired to employ him on ground duties and that he may be granted a free passage to Canada should he desire.  Passage to Toronto by "Missanabie" leaving Glasgow 11.1.18."

However, in his history of No 10 Squadron RNAS, Mike Westrop records that Flight Sub-Lieutenant Thomas Holmes was with No 12 Squadron RNAS from 6 to 12 July 1917 and at No 10 Squadron RNAS from 13 to 26 July when, having been "washed out" on scouts, was transferred to RNAS HQ.  He then records Holmes as being under instruction on a seaplane course from 8t to 3 October.  He was judged a capable seaplane pilot but refused to fly seaplanes.  Appointment terminated on 9th January 1918 and was returned to Canada where he burnt his uniform.

Strange that his, albeit brief, stints with two operational squadrons are not noted in either record. 

Graeme

[George Rayner]

Ancestry has 34 family trees for him-none of which mention war service!

George

2 minutes ago, topgun1918 said:

Passage to Toronto by "Missanabie" leaving Glasgow 11.1.18."

Mentioned in his Gratuity file

Thanks Topgun-fascinating

[Dominion-of-the-North]

15 minutes ago, topgun1918 said:

... He was judged a capable seaplane pilot but refused to fly seaplanes.  ... was returned to Canada where he burnt his uniform.

That sounds like an angry, resentful man!

Wonderful information.  I remain very grateful.

Cheers,

Glen,

In Our Dominion of the North

PS:  Thank you, also for the two refs to his files hld by Then National Achives, Kew.  I had missed one of them.

PPS:  You wrote: ".. under instruction on a seaplane course from 8t to 3 October. "  Is that a typo?  The dates don't seem to work.

[Dominion-of-the-North]

55 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Here is the Gratuity file...

Fascinating read. More than a few gems of valuable information to pluck out of the run-of-the-mill boiler-plate info. 

Thank you, so much, George.

[horatio2]

39 minutes ago, topgun1918 said:

Strange that his, albeit brief, stints with two operational squadrons are not noted in either record

But not strange if he was never formally taken onto the strength of either squadron. 12(N) Squadron  was, I believe, a training unit and pilots under training would have been borne as 'additional'. The same principle probably applies to his few, unsuccessful days in 10(N) Squadron and to the two months spent on an unspecified seaplane training unit at RNAS Calshot.

[topgun1918]

I think I was distracted by my granddaughter when I made my earlier post; Mike Westrop has Holmes at Calshot from 8 August to 3 October 1917.

Graeme

 

[Dominion-of-the-North]

27 minutes ago, topgun1918 said:

I think I was distracted by my granddaughter when I made my earlier post; Mike Westrop has Holmes at Calshot from 8 August to 3 October 1917.

Ha!  Thanks very much for the update ;-)

[Dominion-of-the-North]

1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

But not strange if he was never formally taken onto the strength of either squadron. 12(N) Squadron  was, I believe, a training unit and pilots under training would have been borne as 'additional'. The same principle probably applies to his few, unsuccessful days in 10(N) Squadron and to the two months spent on an unspecified seaplane training unit at RNAS Calshot.

That makes perfect sense, and helps connect a lot of erstwhile wayward dots.

Thank you.

Glen,

In Our Dominion of the North

[Dominion-of-the-North]

I found a wonderful photo of Holmes, on line, in uniform -- see below.  (I wonder if that's the uniform he's alleged to have burned! ;-)

I would be grateful to be enlightened on three elements of his uniform, please:

• the chevrons above his rank braid indicate 2 years overseas service?
• the white trousers (with navy blue tunic) is not unusual for RNAS officers?
• does the silver eagle in his cap badge signify anything different from those RNAS officers I see with bronze eagles?

Cheers,

Glen,

In Our Dominion of the North