Killed wounded - national and local figures

[Old trousers]

Might be a naive question but is there a definitive or reasonably agreed record of the percentage of soldiers who served in the British Army who were killed, wounded, deserted etc ?

I’d like to be able to compare this to the data base I have for my village and see if it reflects the national pattern. 
 

I thought it safe to check with you chaps first to see how feasible that may be 

Thanks in anticipation 

 

[kenf48]

Statistics of the Military Effort of the Great War should provide the information you seek  I might add ,however, there is some variation (read argument) in the numbers which are often revised.  You might also need to clarify which part of the UK you are considering to gain a more accurate ratio.

https://archive.org/details/statisticsofmili00grea

[Old trousers]

Thank you for your help kenf48 a very useful lead

sorry for delay in replying 

OT

 

[Derek Black]

OT,

Be sure to let us know what your research shows, and how you’ve compared the two sets of data. 
 

Cheets,,

Derek. 

[Old trousers]

Will do 

 

OT

[phil andrade]

A huge array of statistics is available, but if you seek a kind of rough and ready benchmark, you can work on a reckoning that about thirteen percent of all British males who joined the army did not survive 1914-18.

As for the wounded, gassed, prisoners and the sick who were invalided out of the service   - not to mention deserters- the percentage was significantly greater.

For infantrymen who served in battle, the odds of survival were much worse.  Remember that “ teeth to tail” ratio.

 

If the village where you live furnished a large number of its menfolk to infantry regiments that were conspicuous in the most intense fighting, you’ll see a higher percentage of deaths.

 

 Phil 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Old trousers]

Phil

Thank you for the advice. I think this will prove an interesting one.

Always very impressed with the depth of knowledge you guys have, such a big help 

Paul 

[JMB1943]

Paul,

My grandfather was in 2nd Bn Royal Sussex Regt on Western Front, Jan. 18, 1915 to Armistice Day.

I can give you one piece of anecdotal evidence and one factual.

Anecdotal: he was one of only 6 men in his company to survive neither killed nor wounded.

Factual: of those whose fates were determined, the reinforcement draft of which he was a member suffered,

KiA 30%; DoW 7%; ; Discharged (injury/sickness/wounds) 22%; Demobbed to Class Z (fit for further front-linewar service) 33%;

Deserted 4%.

From the History of the 7th (Service) Bn RSR, Appendix B, p. 279 one can calculate 2.5 wounded for every OR killed.

These numbers are obviously for two infantry battalions; cavalry regiments, RA batteries etc. may give different %.

You can get either numbers very similar to these or different depending on which battalion of a given regiment you investigate.

”Statistics of… (above)”will give the overall picture.

I shall be interested to see how these numbers compare to those in your village database, so please post them.

Regards,

JMB

[phil andrade]

JMB,

 

That’s startling as a record of the attrition of battle in the Great War.

Trying to extrapolate from your percentages, it's all too clear that virtually everyone in that draft was killed or wounded: indeed, as you state, only six men survived unscathed, your own existence being attributable to your grandfather’s luck !

Please provide the actual numbers as opposed to just the percentages.

 Thanks very much for such a timely and informative contribution.

 

 Phil 

 

 

[JMB1943]

Hello Phil,

Before I get to the numbers, a little confusion, caused by me, needs to be cleared up.

1) My g’dad was indeed one of only six in his company (C Coy) unscathed through the war.

2) He was one of a 74-man reinforcement draft to 2 RSR; BUT not all of this draft went into C Coy.

When I researched this draft, I gathered not 74 but 83 men who could have been in the draft; the numbers quoted below are derived from this total of 83.

The fate of 10 men could not be determined, so my list shrinks to 73; the distribution of these 73 men is as follows,,

KiA          22

DoW.         5

Disch.      16

Class Z.   24

Desert.       3

Total.        70

Three survived, to die post-war in 1927, 1953 and 1970, respectively.

What surprised me about the set of numbers is the high number of Class Z men, deemed fit for further front-line service should Germany not abide by the terms of the armistice. Of course, some of those would have escaped with only flesh wounds.

Incidentally, of the 3 deserters 2 signed up again in infantry battalions and they also (the 3) all survived the war.

Regards,

JMB

PS I know that the late Martin Gillott posted a lot of data on survivability here on GWF about 5-6 years ago.

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, JMB1943 said:

PS I know that the late Martin Gillott posted a lot of data on survivability here on GWF about 5-6 years ago.

I think this may be the thread you are referring to

Martin's comparative data, whilst exploring a different topic, may be relevant to this thread.  As previously noted when trying to establish comparisons the base data, i.e.the national statistics may result in comparing apples with oranges unless parameters are as clearly defined as in Martin's work. 

It depends I guess how the information is going to be used.

[phil andrade]

2 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Hello Phil,

Before I get to the numbers, a little confusion, caused by me, needs to be cleared up.

1) My g’dad was indeed one of only six in his company (C Coy) unscathed through the war.

2) He was one of a 74-man reinforcement draft to 2 RSR; BUT not all of this draft went into C Coy.

When I researched this draft, I gathered not 74 but 83 men who could have been in the draft; the numbers quoted below are derived from this total of 83.

The fate of 10 men could not be determined, so my list shrinks to 73; the distribution of these 73 men is as follows,,

KiA          22

DoW.         5

Disch.      16

Class Z.   24

Desert.       3

Total.        70

Three survived, to die post-war in 1927, 1953 and 1970, respectively.

What surprised me about the set of numbers is the high number of Class Z men, deemed fit for further front-line service should Germany not abide by the terms of the armistice. Of course, some of those would have escaped with only flesh wounds.

Incidentally, of the 3 deserters 2 signed up again in infantry battalions and they also (the 3) all survived the war.

Regards,

JMB

PS I know that the late Martin Gillott posted a lot of data on survivability here on GWF about 5-6 years ago.

Thanks for this heavy lifting, JMB.

 

No prisoners of war, or unaccounted for missing ? Presumably, the latter are included in the KiA.

The ratio of killed is high, and the additional died of wounds imparts a grim lethality to the composition of the total casualty record.

 

 Phil 

[JMB1943]

Phil,

I know that you have had a long-standing interest in GW casualties, so I have looked back at the dates of death for 20 x KiA and 5 x DoW that I have.

From this I have calculated the number of days that each survived on the Western Front.

The overall survival was an average of 293 days; however, if you were not one of the 13 who died within the first month of service in France the survival went to an average of 598 days.

I have not looked at the data for those men who were discharged prior to the armistice, because the service records to differentiate between wounds/injury/illness do not exist.

Regards,

JMB

[phil andrade]

12 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Phil,

I know that you have had a long-standing interest in GW casualties, so I have looked back at the dates of death for 20 x KiA and 5 x DoW that I have.

From this I have calculated the number of days that each survived on the Western Front.

The overall survival was an average of 293 days; however, if you were not one of the 13 who died within the first month of service in France the survival went to an average of 598 days.

I have not looked at the data for those men who were discharged prior to the armistice, because the service records to differentiate between wounds/injury/illness do not exist.

Regards,

JMB

JMB,

 

Your analytical expertise impresses me.

 I have an enduring interest in the interpretation and presentation of the casualty statistics, but I have nothing like your skills in dealing with the challenges.

 

The question of how we extrapolate from the record of one unit is to the fore here.

A single draft took the preponderance of its punishment in a short period of time, presumably in a small number of engagements : your analysis makes that clear.

I wish I could make a more coherent explanation as to where I’m going here : it bothers me that I accumulate data and fail to give a reason as to why the controversy emanating from the exercise so fascinates me.

 

Phil

Edited 18 November , 2022 by phil andrade

[JMB1943]

Phil,

You are too kind......but your words of praise made me think about the numbers again.

Using the mean (arithmetic average) is appropriate when the data is all of about the same value, i.e. weights of Patt. 1907 bayonets, wing-span of adult pigeons etc.

For the survival data, there was a considerable number of men killed within 30 days and a single man who was killed after a very long time in the field (see listing below).

Both of these circumstances can distort the mean value dramatically; in this case, a better approach is to calculate the median, which is that value above and below which there are an equal number of values (50%). List the values (all 25 of them) from lowest to highest, then the 13th value has 12 below it and 12 above it.

                                                                 

	537		7
	420		7
	585		7
	12		7
	530		7
	7		7
	8		8
	11		9
	537		11
	12		11
	7		12
	7		12
	1344		13
	21		21
	7		420
	543		526
	13		530
	982		537
	526		537
	7		543
	9		577
	577		585
	11		600
	600		982
	7		1344
MEAN	293		13	MEDIAN

The 13th value is actually 13, so theoretically 13 days of survival should be a better measure, but clearly the 25 men lay in two distinct groups of 14 men and 11 men (those who do not/do survive longer than 1 month). The median of the 7-21 days' survival is (8+9)/2 = 8.5 days; the median of the 420-1344 days is 543 days.

You have have been thinking about survival statistics a lot longer than I have, so you may not be surprised by the numbers that can be generated by different methods.

In the overall scheme of the GW, these 25 men are an almost infinitely small sample, so these statistics are afflicted by the "curse of small datasets".

I am very curious to see what @Old trousers finds for his village.

Regards,

JMB

 

 

 

[phil andrade]

JMB,

Fifty three years ago I just scraped my Maths “O” level at school, and my understanding of statistics is confined to basic arithmetic , and how I wish I could better understand the presentation you’ve been kind enough to provide !

 

That phrase you use “ curse of small datasets” succinctly delivers what I’ve been struggling to say for years on this forum.

 

The curse I suffer is having a profound interest in the subject of these tragic statistics, without having the technical ability to do it justice.

 

Phil

 

 

[AndrewSid]

Very interesting thread.  For my two penneth I researched my great uncles draft into the infantry arriving France in Oct 1916.  8th Bn KORL. Of the 70 men, 25 died. Only three were probably remaining in the Battalion on 11 Nov  1918.  All bar three had been killed,  wounded or medically downgraded and left the battalion.  Only two were POW in spring of 1918. I did a blog on them on here.

I’ve always been taken by how men were regularly taken from the support arms and moved into the infantry.  If you were fit it seemed the infantry would get you at some point. 
 

Andy

Edited 3 December , 2022 by AndrewSid

[phil andrade]

26 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

Very interstitial thread.  For my two penneth I researched my great uncles draft into the infantry arriving France in Oct 1916.  8th Bn KORL. Of the 70 men, 25 died. Only three were probably remaining in the Battalion on 11 Nov  1918.  All bar three had been killed,  wounded or medically downgraded and left the battalion.  Only two were POW in spring of 1918. I did a blog on them on here.

I’ve always been taken by how men were regularly taken from the support arms and moved into the infantry.  If you were fit it seemed the infantry would get you at some point. 
 

Andy

Andy, 

 

That happened a generation later, too.

 

In 1941, dad was sent to North Africa where he served as a gunner.

 

He fought at El Alamein and followed on with service in Italy.

By 1944 he was deployed there as an infantryman .

 

Phil

[Old trousers]

Hi Chaps,

 

At very early stage of research but some interesting results already.

These are very rough percentages but happy to share them with you.

In 1914 34 men were recorded as having signed up to fight from a hamlet sized settlement. My remit for both villages was to include men who were born in the village and those who moved away. The majority of men in this first draft were living there in 1914.

By the end of the war 38% were dead, 44% returned relatively unscathed and 17% came back with life changing injuries. One of the dead committed suicide soon after enlistment.  Another lied about his age, was discovered, reenlisted, this time with the Warwickshire Yeomanry and went on to be awarded the MM. He died at the Battle of Huj.

Of the returned a high number had been wounded during active service, some several times. Interestingly, three had been POWs, one dying 'whilst in German hands'. One village family had 7 sons serving, 2 killed. 

Of which more later 

OT

[phil andrade]

Please keep us posted, old strides, this is utterly fascinating.

 

Phil

[JMB1943]

OT,

Interesting numbers, and would possibly be more interesting from knowing how these 34 men were distributed between the Army and the RN.

Also, how distributed in the Army between infantry, artillery and cavalry.

Very much looking forward to your completed story!

Regards,

JMB

[phil andrade]

At least one was a cavalryman, if he died at Huj.

 

Phil

[Old trousers]

JMB 1943

The majority were in various battalions of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, the local regiment.

We also had one Sapper, One driver RFA, one each in the Royal Fusiliers, 1/1 Herts, Leics, Dorsets, OBLI and KOSLI and three drivers and one butcher in the dear old ASC.

I should add that there was also a chap who was born in the village, emigrated to Canada and came back with the 116th (Ontario County) Rgt CEF. He was badly wounded at Cambrai October 1918 and eventually returned to Canada.

A mixed bag indeed.  The other village I am working on, being bigger, had a much wider spread including RN RM and RFC. That work is still a little in the future.  

 

OT

[AndrewSid]

As requested  a deeper look at the draft of 70 men  I researched. To surmise they were a mix of conscripts and volunteers who arrived in France in October 1916 to the 8th Battalion Kings Own Royal Lancaster Regiment. Their main attritional battle was Arras from April 1917 noting they started to lose men from almost the week they arrived in the field. Their medal rolls were unhelpful in determining their discharge status so exactly how many were Class Z was not possible to determine. 

of the 70:

18 KIA, 5 DoW, 1 died as a POW and 1  died from phenomena. 25 total.

16 - medically discharged - at least 14 due to wounds.

4 - POWs - survived - discharge status unknown

7 - transferred to Labour Corps - discharge status unknown

14 - unknown discharge status. Survived 

1 - commissioned - survived 

3 - confirmed Class Z reserves post war.

As per the blog  on the GWF blog page the vast majority were wounded at some point resulting in a large number leaving the battalion either being transferred to the Labour Corps,  into another Regiment after recovering or being medically discharged. None deserted but one had a self inflicted wound which resulted in a posting to the Labour Corps after recovery. 

Edited 5 December , 2022 by AndrewSid

[Alan24]

Gents

I thought you would like to see the results of a much larger sample group covering all ranks and all arms of service.

3454 Citizens of Winchester served in the Great War.

This information was collected in 1921 and published in The Winchester War Service Register the same year.

 

 

Edited 5 December , 2022 by Alan24