Lance-Corporal William Walker, Royal Irish Rifles

[hen190782]

Good Afternoon

 

Tom Burnell sent me this extract from the Register of Death for a William Walker, Soldier, of 8 Collyer Street who died of Broncho-Pneumonia on 2nd September 1920 at Victoria Barracks Military Hospital following an operation for appendicitis. He is not recorded as a war fatality on CWGC and is recorded as “Wounded” in the entry for Newington Presbyterian Church in the PCI Roll of Honour book.

 

William Walker enlisted with the Army Cyclist Corps (S/N 509) and was deployed to France with the Ulster Division in October 1915. He was subsequently transferred to the 15th Battalion Royal Irish Rifles (S/N 15/9266) and admitted to 34th Casualty Clearing Station with gunshot wounds to the right arm on 3rd July 1916. The London Gazette of 20th October 1916 reported that William Walker had been awarded the Military Medal. Lance-Corporal William Walker was transferred to the Class Z Army Reserve on 16th March 1919. William Walker was buried in Belfast City Cemetery on 4th September 1920.

 

There is a disability pension card, but the nature of the disability is not recorded and the application seems to have been cancelled as he had died.

 

If he was still on the Class Z Army Reserve or had been demobilised, he probably would not qualify as it is unlikely that the Broncho-Pneumonia could be proved to be connected to his army service.

 

However, as he is recorded as being a Soldier in the register of deaths, it is possible that he had re-enlisted and would qualify for CWGC war fatality status.

 

Is there any way of identifying enlistments in the 1919/1920 period?

 

Thanks

 

Nigel 

[PRC]

If he'd signed up again in 1920 then by September he would have had a seven digit service number. If he was with the Royal Irish Rifles then they were drawing from the block 7006001 to 7040000. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/new-british-army-numbers-issued-in-1920/

That doesn't kill off the possibility altogether, as the pension relates to his earlier service, but a cross-reference to a new number would have made things clearer. I would imagine the Ministrry of Pensions would take an interest - the pensions were paid out to reflect loss of earnings potential, so someone holding down a full-time job could call that into question.

I'm not reading it that the application for a pension was cancelled, but that payment of his pension was cancelled. As someone in receipt of a War Pension, the Ministry of Pensions would have some responsibilty for his subsequent medical treatment and may well have had arrangements with local military facilities in order to reduce the drain on the public purse. I don't know how far that responsibility extended beyond treatment related to the medical causes for which he was discharged as being caused or aggravated by his service.

If it was strictly related, then going into hospital for the operation on his appendix would have been related to the reason for his discharge. But a post-operative chest infection picked up on the ward is probably stretching it too far to claim him as a missed commemoration..

If it was a general health care support then there isn't even the initial link from appendix to cause for discharge.

I don't know if forum members like @ss002d6252 or @Matlock1418 have any thing secreted away that deals with the Ministry of Pensions responsibility for the post-discharge healthcare of war pensioners at the time?

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, hen190782 said:

Lance-Corporal William Walker was transferred to the Class Z Army Reserve on 16th March 1919. William Walker was buried in Belfast City Cemetery on 4th September 1920.

 

There is a disability pension card, but the nature of the disability is not recorded and the application seems to have been cancelled as he had died.

 

If he was still on the Class Z Army Reserve or had been demobilised, he probably would not qualify as it is unlikely that the Broncho-Pneumonia could be proved to be connected to his army service.

First thoughts - If transferred to the ZR then he was not considered medically unfit for potential future service.

The ZR was disbanded March 1920 so before his death.

A disability pension was being paid until his death

Death from appendicitis and Broncho-pheumonia quite a bit later than adischarge do currently seem unlikely to offer much linkage to service.

M

[hen190782]

4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

First thoughts - If transferred to the ZR then he was not considered medically unfit for potential future service.

The ZR was disbanded March 1920 so before his death.

A disability pension was being paid until his death

Death from appendicitis and Broncho-pheumonia quite a bit later than adischarge do currently seem unlikely to offer much linkage to service.

M

It is strange that the pension card does not mention the nature of disability, degree of disability, or rate. That is what made me think that the pension application was under consideration.

52 minutes ago, PRC said:

If he'd signed up again in 1920 then by September he would have had a seven digit service number. If he was with the Royal Irish Rifles then they were drawing from the block 7006001 to 7040000. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/new-british-army-numbers-issued-in-1920/

That doesn't kill off the possibility altogether, as the pension relates to his earlier service, but a cross-reference to a new number would have made things clearer. I would imagine the Ministrry of Pensions would take an interest - the pensions were paid out to reflect loss of earnings potential, so someone holding down a full-time job could call that into question.

I'm not reading it that the application for a pension was cancelled, but that payment of his pension was cancelled. As someone in receipt of a War Pension, the Ministry of Pensions would have some responsibilty for his subsequent medical treatment and may well have had arrangements with local military facilities in order to reduce the drain on the public purse. I don't know how far that responsibility extended beyond treatment related to the medical causes for which he was discharged as being caused or aggravated by his service.

If it was strictly related, then going into hospital for the operation on his appendix would have been related to the reason for his discharge. But a post-operative chest infection picked up on the ward is probably stretching it too far to claim him as a missed commemoration..

If it was a general health care support then there isn't even the initial link from appendix to cause for discharge.

I don't know if forum members like @ss002d6252 or @Matlock1418 have any thing secreted away that deals with the Ministry of Pensions responsibility for the post-discharge healthcare of war pensioners at the time?

Cheers,
Peter

It is strange that the pension card does not mention the nature of disability, degree of disability, or rate. That is what made me think that the pension application was under consideration.

[ss002d6252]

His mother received a pension. This would only happen under the 1919 RW where a man had died under the criteria of Article 11 of the RW 1919
 

Quote

 

...
a soldier who

(a) is killed while in the performance of military duty during the war,
or
(b) dies as a result of wounds or injuries received in the performance of such duty within seven years of receiving such wounds or injuries,
or
(c) dies of disease certified as contracted or commencing while on active service during the war, or as having been aggravated by such active service, within seven years of his removal from duty on account of such disease, may, provided the soldier’s death has not been caused by his serious negligence, or misconduct.
...

 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

Her pension was originally denied on the basis he did not qualify, but it was allowed on appeal. It references that he died of 'disease'.


Craig

[hen190782]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

His mother received a pension. This would only happen under the 1919 RW where a man had died under the criteria of Article 11 of the RW 1919
 

Craig

I do not know what "1919 RW" means ... it is always better to spell things out.

As far as I can see, the cause of death was a complication after an operation for a condition that was not war-related. 

Would his mother not have received a pension if he had died whilst a serving soldier? 

Regards

Nigel

Edited 31 October , 2022 by hen190782

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

His mother received a pension. This would only happen under the 1919 RW where a man had died under the criteria of Article 11 of the RW 1919

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

Her pension was originally denied on the basis he did not qualify, but it was allowed on appeal. It references that he died of 'disease'.

Ah, better that you have looked at the other pension cards too. Which I hadn't before    Interesting that the MoP paid up in the end.

56 minutes ago, hen190782 said:

I do not know what "1919 RW" means ... it is always better to spell things out.

1919 RW = 1919 Royal Warrant [the 'rules'/basis for the paying out of pension(s)]

M

[hen190782]

"1919 RW = 1919 Royal Warrant [the 'rules'/basis for the paying out of pension(s)]" 

Unfortunately, I do not think the military authorities would accept the payment of a pension to NOK as being sufficient evidence that he qualifies as a war fatality.

Thanks

[Matlock1418]

5 minutes ago, hen190782 said:

Unfortunately, I do not think the military authorities would accept the payment of a pension to NOK as being sufficient evidence that he qualifies as a war fatality.

That seems probably currently the case - but much disputed/questioned of late here on GWF!   After all the MoP were undertaking a statutory legal duty and had to be pretty sure before they doled out the Nation's cash.

M

Edited 31 October , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo omission

[hen190782]

1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

That seems probably currently the case - but much disputed/questioned of late here on GWF!   After all the MoP were undertaking a statutory legal duty and had to pretty sure before they doled out the Nation's cash.

M

Aye, common sense seems to be absent in deciding non-Comm cases and by the CWGC in applying corrections to the details on individual fatality records. Let us put that can of worms out of sight.

[PRC]

2 hours ago, hen190782 said:

It is strange that the pension card does not mention the nature of disability, degree of disability, or rate. That is what made me think that the pension application was under consideration.

A significant minority don't have this information - just means we have to work with the breadcrumbs we can find elsewhere  So when the rear of the card says "Cancel the award from" etc, that to me would imply an award has been made and the pension in payment. Even his death wouldn't have cancelled the application as there would still have been a period prior when arrears of pension might be due to be paid to his estate. Of course his legal executor \ next of kin may have formally withdrawn the application, but I'd expect that to be noted.

Unfortunately a lot of this is not absolutes. He could have served again and received a disability pension at the same time. It's unlikely but not impossible.
The payment made to the mother could have been a form of ex gratia - a recognition that the Army \ Military Hospital had made errors in their treatment that contributed to his demise.
Men were released to Class Z that were in the lower grades of fitness and some went on to subsequently claim disability pensions, even if they had previously signed a declaration prior to discharge saying they had no cause to make a claim.

But the sheer lack of evidence for what was the case versus what might have been the case will I suspect effectively knock this one on the head for now as a missed commemoration.

Cheers,
Peter

[hen190782]

1 minute ago, PRC said:

A significant minority don't have this information - just means we have to work with the breadcrumbs we can find elsewhere  So when the rear of the card says "Cancel the award from" etc, that to me would imply an award has been made and the pension in payment. Even his death wouldn't have cancelled the application as there would still have been a period prior when arrears of pension might be due to be paid to his estate. Of course his legal executor \ next of kin may have formally withdrawn the application, but I'd expect that to be noted.

Unfortunately a lot of this is not absolutes. He could have served again and received a disability pension at the same time. It's unlikely but not impossible.
The payment made to the mother could have been a form of ex gratia - a recognition that the Army \ Military Hospital had made errors in their treatment that contributed to his demise.
Men were released to Class Z that were in the lower grades of fitness and some went on to subsequently claim disability pensions, even if they had previously signed a declaration prior to discharge saying they had no cause to make a claim.

But the sheer lack of evidence for what was the case versus what might have been the case will I suspect effectively knock this one on the head for now as a missed commemoration.

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you ... he will be going into my war-related graves records and I will be visiting the burial location to check whether there is a headstone.

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

Of course his legal executor \ next of kin may have formally withdrawn the application, but I'd expect that to be noted.

That level of detail is unlikely to be found on a pension card(s) as they really were an indexing/cataloguing tool first and foremost for the MoP and the extra details we have are thus a bit of a bonus for us now - given that the vast majority of Awards Files have been deliberately destroyed once their use was ended.  Unfortunately I can't see his file amongst the very few retained "PIN 26" files at TNA

12 minutes ago, hen190782 said:

Let us put that can of worms out of sight.

Possibly a good idea for now - You'll need an actual discharge date and cause, as a minimum, to help you further.

And, fear not - I'm not going to mention the CWGC/MoP issue/debate further here!

14 minutes ago, PRC said:

The payment made to the mother could have been a form of ex gratia - a recognition that the Army \ Military Hospital had made errors in their treatment that contributed to his demise.

We can't see the grounds for the Appeal's success, so ...

12 minutes ago, PRC said:

But the sheer lack of evidence for what was the case versus what might have been the case will I suspect effectively knock this one on the head for now as a missed commemoration.

As it currently stands on the various fronts - evidence and ...

7 minutes ago, hen190782 said:

he will be going into my war-related graves records and I will be visiting the burial location to check whether there is a headstone.

And why not? =  

M

[charlie962]

The following newspaper extracts (courtesy Findmypast newspapers) may be of interest and relevant to his medical condition?

Northern Whig 21/9/16, following a previous noting of his award as a man who had enlisted from the Belfast UVF:

There is then this long article in the Northern Whig dated 21/1/18 about a hospital extension, that ends with an MM presentation to William who is perhaps still recovering in the orthopedic section ? 

Charlie 

[Matlock1418]

42 minutes ago, PRC said:

the rear of the card says "Cancel the award from" etc, that to me would imply an award has been made and the pension in payment.

Yes. Just to clarify - the pension ledger index card presented in the OP = was for his unspecified disability claim and it was this which was being cancelled - not his mother's claim.

I have to say that we are having a difficult time joining all the dots here - the military and MoP would/should have had it much easier [?] back in 1920/21!

M

Edited 31 October , 2022 by Matlock1418
omission typo

[PRC]

26 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

That level of detail is unlikely to be found on a pension card(s) as they really were an indexing/cataloguing tool first and foremost for the MoP

Without wanting to drag us too far off topic, having been a civil servant working in this area some sixty years later, it's alway interesting to note how little some working practices changed. Thus the cause for a claim ending would have been very important to the civil servant managing the case as part of their workload. A claim made but rejected, a claim initially awarded but subsequently terminated because the qualifying conditions are no longer met or a lump sum payment has been made, an award ended by death and an award \ claim ended by being formally withdrawn all have potential different next actions, governed by different parts of the relevant legislation. While I would not have expected war and peace, I suspect certain stock phrases were routinely used, and so "Claim withdrawn xx/xx/xx" rather than "Cancel the award from" etc

BTW - looking at the handwriting and ink tone, is it possible the first card posted was raised retrospectively after his death, possibly because the original had gone missing?
Might explain the lack of detail about why the pension was awarded.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[hen190782]

42 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

The following newspaper extracts (courtesy Findmypast newspapers) may be of interest and relevant to his medical condition?

Northern Whig 21/9/16, following a previous noting of his award as a man who had enlisted from the Belfast UVF:

There is then this long article in the Northern Whig dated 21/1/18 about a hospital extension, that ends with an MM presentation to William who is perhaps still recovering in the orthopedic section ? 

Charlie 

Thanks, he was admitted to No 34 Casualty Clearing Station in early July and later evacuated. 

 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

BTW - looking at the handwriting and ink tone, is it possible the first card posted was raised retrospectively after his death, possibly because the original had gone missing?

Might be - and I haven't [yet?] found a pension index card to match this PLIC - usually they came along paired.  Edit: found it! [dreadful indexing transcription!]

Image thanks to WFA.Fold3

Interesting that it refers to Army Cyclist Corps = another line of enquiry perhaps

Perhaps earlier PLIC cancelled/destroyed and the case had to be reopened, at least in association to mother's claim. ???

Intriguing case -  Especially the mother's award on appeal.

Hope we can find out more.

M

Further edit:  Still no note of his disability.  Discharged 16-3-19 at pension of 13/9 pw from 17.3.19 to 16.9.19 [this rate equates to an evaluation of 50% disability] on transfer to Z/R Ir R [Z Army Reserve - such men were not to be considered medically unfit for potential future service!].  We can see the [Awards] FILE DESTROYED 4/10/27 [so no wonder it wasn't amongst the PIN 26 files retained at TNA!]

There is an interesting file note of MoP reference 2/MW/1331 - this is a Region 2 [Northern England] reference = Wonder why being processed there? Medical treatment at some stage perhaps ??? Certainly seems a later addition to the card - or perhaps a scrambled Region 12 [Northern Ireland] one? - Rather looks like it should have been 12/MW1331 after all as that would match the PLIC in the OP

Edited 31 October , 2022 by Matlock1418
edit and add pension card and further edit

[hen190782]

To close off this discussion, IF he had re-enlisted and was still in the Army, he would automatically qualify. In the absence of any evidence of re-enlistment or the basis for the pension award, I will not be submitting a case to IFCP but, as mentioned earlier, he will be going into my war-related graves in Ulster records.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

[Matlock1418]

4 minutes ago, hen190782 said:

To close off this discussion,

Have you seen my last post's edit and the reference to ACC?

M

[Matlock1418]

Further edited my earlier post

M

[charlie962]

OP said he was ACC before RIrishRifles.

[Matlock1418]

27 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

OP said he was ACC before RIrishRifles.

Oh, had missed that in the OP.   

Never mind I'm happy that we have at least found that disability pension index card to match the PLIC in the OP now. [And I have corrected the indexing which had originally incorporated his MM in his name and handicapped/prevented effective full searches] But sadly no further in progressing.

M

Edited 31 October , 2022 by Matlock1418
add