justmycuppatea Posted 30 March , 2005 Share Posted 30 March , 2005 Hello All! I've just registered as 'justmycuppatea' as you can see, my real name is David Milner and I've always taken an interest in the World Wars. Recently I have read the books Forgotten Voices by Max Arthur and A War In Words, which as you probably know are both first hand accounts from the Great War. These books are absolutely amazing and fired my interested in The Great War and my family history within it. After some digging around and visiting some relatives I found that a young Milner died in France during 1918 (infact 29th March 1918) as shown on the War Graves Commission website. All the inform was backed up by family stories and a picture and medals were dug out by my Grandad. In tribute to his untimely death (believed to be at the age of 17), as a web designer I launched a site in his memory at the following address: In Memory of Israel Milner The site still needs lots of work but as I discover new information and material I should be able to add to it. It was only launched yesterday, in time for the 87th Anniversary of his registered death. Thanks for reading, looking forward to hearing from you all and any resources you can put me in touch with. Cheers justmycuppatea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 30 March , 2005 Share Posted 30 March , 2005 Welcome to the Forum. It may inetrest you to know that tapes/CDs are available of the Max Arthur "Voices" books for both WW1 and WW2. These are recordings of the veterans themselves and can be picked up for about £35 on the net for the set of 12 CDs I think (not sure how many tapes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 30 March , 2005 Share Posted 30 March , 2005 Would this be Israel Milner, born March Qtr 1898, North Bierley, West Riding of Yorkshire? Perhaps the son of Israel Milner, married Sep Qtr 1886 registered in Bradford to Ann Butterfield and of Tong, Yorkshire, brother of Herbert, born 1890? I realise the age is not quite right. This Israel would have been 20 in 1918. The medals on your site are a Victory Medal and a British War Medal. He was 1st Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers. The Battalion is important if you are going to trace his movements through the war. Regiments did not usually fight together. Regimental Page : http://www.1914-1918.net/northfus.htm The Divisional Page will allow you to see when and where he may have fought: http://www.1914-1918.net/3div.htm Have you looked at his Medal Index Card? http://www.documentsonline.nationalarchive...&resultcount=30 My apologies if you've seen this all before... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justmycuppatea Posted 30 March , 2005 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2005 Would this be Israel Milner, born March Qtr 1898, North Bierley, West Riding of Yorkshire? Perhaps the son of Israel Milner, married Sep Qtr 1886 registered in Bradford to Ann Butterfield and of Tong, Yorkshire, brother of Herbert, born 1890? Steve. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> WOW.. that's the fellow. That information is excellent, did you get it from a Census? I've been thinking about looking into that but hadn't got around to it yet. Our whole family are from Bradford and my Nan & Grandad still live in East Bierley in Bradford near Tong. My Grandad has told me about Herbert, he used to be a Pub Landlord, larger than life guy without a single strand of hair on any of him. I think he fought in the war as well but survived. As for his age, that was a guess based on my Grandad's memory, he's more likely to be 20, that'll be his correct age at the time of death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 30 March , 2005 Share Posted 30 March , 2005 Yeah, from the 1891 Census and from the Births, Marriages, Deaths index (BMD). Can't find them on the 1901 yet (and hence Israel's actual age). Sorry about the editing of the first post. Bad habit of mine. I can do some more digging if you want. Census site subscription is a big help! Steve. PS Israel Juniors birth cert ref is 9b-157. Israel Senior's marriage cert is ref 9b-242. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justmycuppatea Posted 30 March , 2005 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2005 Cheers Steve, Yes please do keep digging.. Any further information you can discover would be much appriciated. I'm trying to put a small family tree together for the site. I find all this fascinating. I've already got the information from his medal roll card from the National Archives, that was a great find. In remarks it actually comments 'Pres. Dead'. It ranks his as a Private on the Roll Card and yet on the CWC he's ranked as Lance Corporal, any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 30 March , 2005 Share Posted 30 March , 2005 Steve/David The transcribed name on the 1901 is "Milnes". Use that to find them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 30 March , 2005 Share Posted 30 March , 2005 Cheers, Stephen. Haven't you got work to do?! David, Mr Nulty is the resident Census Guru. I'm just the "Young Pretender" I'm sure together we can Tree you up! I'll look at the 1901 Census later, after work, if Stephen hasn't traced you back to William the Conqueror, by then! Steve. By the way, if you edit your Intial post and add Israels details on the sceond line, it will look less like you're selling something, and you'll get more views, and potentially more information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 30 March , 2005 Share Posted 30 March , 2005 I'm working, I'm working, that's why I didn't get the details myself. Cheeky young whippersnapper Leave me alone, I'm a busy man I remember my dad used to say "Work is the curse of the drinking classes". Gets in the way of hobbies as well, doesn't it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justmycuppatea Posted 30 March , 2005 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2005 I remember my dad used to say "Work is the curse of the drinking classes". Gets in the way of hobbies as well, doesn't it! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Too Right! but I better get back on with work myself. I'll be online tonight and will probably make some updates to the site based on the information you've provided. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 30 March , 2005 Share Posted 30 March , 2005 It ranks his as a Private on the Roll Card and yet on the CWC he's ranked as Lance Corporal, any ideas? Hi David Lance Corporal was an appointment rather than a rank. Although he served as a Lance Corporal his rank would have been Private. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 30 March , 2005 Share Posted 30 March , 2005 Hi David Just in case you don't have the "Soldiers Died in the Great War" information :- 36993 Lance Corporal Israel Milner 1st Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers Died France & Flanders 29/03/1918 Born : Bradford, Yorks Enlisted : Halifax Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 30 March , 2005 Share Posted 30 March , 2005 David, Here's the promised Census Info. Bearing in mind that they are "Milnes" on the transcription, as Steve Nulty found out. It appears that many of the transcribers couldn't actually read or the Census takers couldn't write clearly! Then again they've done the work, we haven't... Israel Milner, Head of Household, age 38, Occ : Coal Heaver (I think, the whole street are....) Ann Milner, wife, age 34. Herbert, son, age 11. Beatrice, dtr, age 9. Mary C, dtr, age 7 Frances, dtr, age 5, Israel, age 3 (which confirms our 1898 date of birth) All listed as born Bradford, Yorks. and finally Johnathan Milner, "grandfather/grandpa" (presumably father of Israel Snr), widower, age 70 "something" (the Census taker was a bit free with his marking off pen), Ironstone Heaver, also born Bradford, Yorks. Address is 15 Westgate Hill, Tong, Bradford. Steve. PS Just how many Steve's are there on this board! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justmycuppatea Posted 10 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2005 Hi David Just in case you don't have the "Soldiers Died in the Great War" information :- 36993 Lance Corporal Israel Milner 1st Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers Died France & Flanders 29/03/1918 Born : Bradford, Yorks Enlisted : Halifax Steve <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey Steve, Where's the information above from? "Soldiers Died in the Great War" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justmycuppatea Posted 11 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2005 I have now updated the site with the latest research obtained here and from some historial research. Thanks for your help so far guys, take a look and let me know what you think. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 David, Many thanks for the acknowledgement. My first published work! A top quality website by the way. I'm going to the PRO on the 30th. I had already earmarked Israel for my "Once I'm finished with my own stuff" list. I'll definitely have a check now. If you want me to, of course. Would a Medal Rolls and Service Record check be ok? Steve. PS A couple of spelling checks, if I may be so bold. You seem to have missed an "a" out of Battalion on 2 occasions. Is the Ernist spelling correct, should it be Ernest? I think the English spelling of "behaviour" is with a "u". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justmycuppatea Posted 11 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Steve, Thanks for the kind words about the site and proof reading it for me I put all that information up after midnight last night and was quite tired so not surprised there are a few errors, I'll correct them this evening. Any information you can gather from the PRO about Israel would be excellent! I would love to be able to get their myself but it's a bit far 'down-south' for me at the moment (if it's the place I'm thinking of) I have the pdf of his Medal Roll from the National Archive's website, so no need to research that. What I am interested in is a War Diary (this may not relate to the PRO) but on this website there's the start of the 1st Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers War Diary and I'm wondering whether there's a mention of Israel recorded in the later parts of the Diary. One other area I would love to research is his history on the Western Front and battles he may have fought it. Is it possible find out when he joined up? (must get back to work for now) Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Dave, The PRO is in Kew, Surrey, about as far west in London as you can get without being in a terminal at Heathrow. Details of when he joined up would be on his Service Records. Unfortunately, our dear friends in the Luftwaffe decided to bomb them in the Blitz. Only about 40% remain (all my Beeby relatives' records are gone ) The date that he entered a Theatre of war is recorded on his MIC if before 1-1-1916. Bearing in mind his age it would probably have been after that, say 1917. I believe 19 was the minimum age for overseas service. That's not to say he didn't get in earlier ("Walk around the block, lad and come back when you're older ) He doesn't seem to have got the 1915 Star so I would say 1916 onwards. If he arrived in France in 1917 he would have been a 3rd Ypres (the infamous Passchendaele) and at Cambrai where Tanks were first used in great numbers by the British. During the March Offensive of 1918, the 3rd Division are briefly mentioned on the 21st March 1918 on this page: http://www.1914-1918.net/bat22.htm however it is incomplete. I do have a copy of Martin Middlebrooks, The Kaiser's Battle, which covers the 1st day of the Offensive. I'll see if the 1NF are mentioned much. The MIC from the website is not the actual Medal roll. It is an index to it. The actual rolls often include more information and, if the service records are gone, may give us our only clues... The War Diaries are usually about half-a-dozen A4 pages per month, hand written and will only very rarely mention lower rank soldiers. There may be an entry for who was killed on the day Israel died, but since it was in the middle of a major offensive, his death would probably only be a statsistic, I'm afraid. You need to order war Diaries 45 minutes in advance. I'm not sure whether I'm going to look at War Diaries, yet. It depends where my research takes me... If I order one for myself I'll have a look at the 1st Northumberland Fusiliers, too. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justmycuppatea Posted 11 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2005 The MIC from the website is not the actual Medal roll. It is an index to it. The actual rolls often include more information and, if the service records are gone, may give us our only clues... ah right! well any further information you can source from the MIC would be great. I would say you are right about when Israel joined up, there's no mention of a 1915 Star on the Roll Card. Prob 1916 onward then. I'm reading up on the Ludendorff Offensive at the moment to see if I can find out more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 14 April , 2005 Share Posted 14 April , 2005 David, Had a look for Israel's Service Records. Sorry. I couldn't find them. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justmycuppatea Posted 14 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2005 David, Had a look for Israel's Service Records. Sorry. I couldn't find them. Steve. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> thanks for looking mate, cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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