Unknowns

[andrew pugh]

Good Evening

Could anybody explain to me why there were so many unknowns found after the war who were killed during the March 1918 and last hundred days August to November 1918. Because it was open warfare quick and decisive actions, by that time it was not like the static battles in the early years where thousands were killed over a period of time just to gain a few hundred yards and then be pushed back again with terrible losses. I can understand the amount of unknowns in that situation.

Regards

Andy   

[Jim Strawbridge]

I had assumed that the majority of unknowns was because of the result of shell bombardment. Bodies were likely to be badly mutilated and possibly missing limbs or head. Under those circumstances it would be no wonder that identity tags went astray. Yet the body had to be buried. The names of the missing would be known but to identify a body under the circumstances that I have mentioned would be nigh impossible.

[Ancre1917]

Some time ago I researched a mass grave near Écoust St. Mein that had been used by a Bavarian sanitary unit to bury c 75 British casualties, many of whom were from 2/6 North Staffordshire Regiment. Most of their identification tags had been removed and sent off to Germany, but a list of the dead was sent to the ICRC. After the war, the bodies were exhumed and reburied by the IWGC in Écoust Military cemetery, which is just adjacent to the original mass grave. Most of the soldiers’ graves are now marked as “unknowns”. The threads on this can be found here:

 

And here:

I guess that in the fluid nature of the fighting during the four or so months of the German Spring Offensive, the task of burying British dead fell to the Germans who may have done much the same as the Bavarians at Écoust

If asked, the ICRC did tell families were these men had been buried, but these details weren’t always followed up after the war and so the men’s graves remained unidentified.   

Richard

[AOK4]

18 minutes ago, Ancre1917 said:

Some time ago I researched a mass grave near Écoust St. Mein that had been used by a Bavarian sanitary unit to bury c 75 British casualties, many of whom were from 2/6 North Staffordshire Regiment. Most of their identification tags had been removed and sent off to Germany, but a list of the dead was sent to the ICRC. After the war, the bodies were exhumed and reburied by the IWGC in Écoust Military cemetery, which is just adjacent to the original mass grave. Most of the soldiers’ graves are now marked as “unknowns”. The threads on this can be found here:

And here:

I guess that in the fluid nature of the fighting during the four or so months of the German Spring Offensive, the task of burying British dead fell to the Germans who may have done much the same as the Bavarians at Écoust

If asked, the ICRC did tell families were these men had been buried, but these details weren’t always followed up after the war and so the men’s graves remained unidentified.   

Richard

Richard,

Did you ever see whether there's more information in the records of the unit in question in Munich?

But indeed: the Germans did a lot of burials and sometimes their records weren't researched after the war.

Jan

[Ancre1917]

No, I never managed that Jan. I have some French, but no German at all. I would guess we could identify a lot of British unknowns from the Munich archive, but I don’t think anyone has ever tried. 

I remember you had the photo of British POWs laying out these men at Écoust. It showed how they stripped them before burial, which would make it very difficult to get any clue as to their identity post war. 

Richard

 

[AOK4]

32 minutes ago, Ancre1917 said:

No, I never managed that Jan. I have some French, but no German at all. I would guess we could identify a lot of British unknowns from the Munich archive, but I don’t think anyone has ever tried. 

I remember you had the photo of British POWs laying out these men at Écoust. It showed how they stripped them before burial, which would make it very difficult to get any clue as to their identity post war. 

Richard

 

Everything had to be salvaged as it could still serve elsewhere...

I have seen war diaries from other companies that had detailed maps of cemeteries that were created by them with exact drawings of who was buried where. Other diaries had extensive details of the people that died and where buried in the text part. So, it may be a good idea to have a look at those (if you would know how to read kurrent of course as most of the things are handwritten).

Jan

[Ancre1917]

That’s very interesting, Jan. If you ever come across anything relating to any North Staffordshire Regiment Battalion, I would be keen to hear about it. Have you ever come across anything on Écoust military cemetery, for example? I know you have the photo that shows a named grave in the foreground. If you have anything else that would help identify any of the other unknowns there, I would be very grateful if you could give me access to it. 

Richard

[andrew pugh]

Good Evening to you all

I started this thread because I have researched certain soldiers who are buried as unknowns in Bancourt British Cemetery and have been able to identify 2 of them so far. The Cemetery list  given to me by the CWGC. It lists every casualty buried within the cemetery, both named casualties and unknowns. I have noticed that there is a huge number of Commonwealth Forces who are buried as unknowns. Bancourt British Cemetery started as a very small battlefield cemetery with a few New Zealand casualties, and the rest were concentrated after the war. The Commonwealth casualties could only have come from the fighting at the beginning of the offensive to push the Germans back at the start of August 1918. These lads would not have been dead that long and yet they are all unknowns. I realise some would have been found in poor condition because of their injuries but surely a lot would have been found in a good state possibly just laying on the surface. But to have been found with no identification I don't get It. They had not been lying around for months like the ones around the Somme or the battles around Ypres. Just seems strange why they are all buried as unknowns.

They are listed in quite large groups indicating they may have belonged to the same unit or fell at the same period of time. There are also 2 large groups of unknown casualties belonging to the HLI with the first one of the cluster being named and a battalion (2nd) and the last casualty is also named with his battalion (2nd) and the ones in between unknown.

Regards

Andy

  

[AOK4]

9 hours ago, Ancre1917 said:

That’s very interesting, Jan. If you ever come across anything relating to any North Staffordshire Regiment Battalion, I would be keen to hear about it. Have you ever come across anything on Écoust military cemetery, for example? I know you have the photo that shows a named grave in the foreground. If you have anything else that would help identify any of the other unknowns there, I would be very grateful if you could give me access to it. 

Richard

I haven't found anything on Ecoust as I also haven't been looking for it. The only way I could find out more is probably looking into the war diary of this Bavarian unit (if you know which one was involved) during a next visit in Munich. My time there is usually already filled for my own research though.

Jan

[Ancre1917]

There’s no information that I can find to identify the Bavarian unit. But thanks for the offer Jan. 

Richard