No.2 General Hosp, Le Havre, Nov 1914 admission & discharge book - anyone familiar?

[grantmal]

I'm trying to work out how/where 'Forces War Records' get their ambulance train numbers from No.2 General Hospital's Nov 1914 admissions/discharge book (MH106) ... is anyone familiar with this book?

My g-grandfather, William Fenemore, went through on his way from Reutel to Liverpool; Forces War Records summarise his entries thus:

Looking at the book, I'm just not sure how/where the train number is indicated. Can anyone help?

Thanks,

Grant

[RussT]

31 minutes ago, grantmal said:

I'm trying to work out how/where 'Forces War Records' get their ambulance train numbers from No.2 General Hospital's Nov 1914 admissions/discharge book (MH106) ... is anyone familiar with this book?

I'm familiar with those records (Series MH/106) - the original images are digitised and are available on FMP.

I have had a look at his record but I can't see any mention of No 2 AT being the unit from which he was admitted to No 2 GH.

Sometimes similar records specifically for CCSs mention men being evacuated on certain ATs but I don't think I have come across a record stating a unit e.g. an AT from which a man was admitted to another unit - unless that specific unit's record has also been preserved and someone has joined all the dots. I note however that No 2 AT's records have not been preserved in the MH/106 Series so they could not have got it from there.

So a bit of a mystery at the moment.

I note your man also has 2 similar records for when he was Queen Alexandra's Military Hospital at Millbank.

Regards

Russ

[RussT]

The only thing that I can spot in his record that might have confused Forces War Records is the fact the number "2" appears in the third column of the record but that refers to his Company number.

Russ

[RussT]

The next man on the list below Fenemore is the record for E Willard 10825 South Wales Borderers.

Perhaps you could tell us what FWR records in the output Table for this man.

With a bit of detective work like that perhaps we can work out the reason for this entry.

Russ

[grantmal]

Thanks, Russ. My sub lapsed but now I've waded up to this part of Will Fenemore's story I can see that I really need to re-sign...

I ask because looking at relevant CCS/Ambulance Train diaries it seems more likely Mr Fenemore was delivered to Le Havre by No.5 Ambulance Train on 17 November, with 343 other wounded from Poperinghe. He was wounded at Reutel on 13 November; No.5 train began loading at Poperinghe on the evening of 15 November.

No.2 Ambulance Train only reached Havre for the first time on the evening of 19 November with 104 British wounded from Rouen, who were hurried down to catch HS Asturias in the harbour: '10.30pm. Le Havre reached. Unloaded train per No.2 General Hosp on to Hospital Ship Asturias.'

I can see why his name would appear in the books either way, but the '3 days under treatment' only seems to make sense if No.5 was his ride.

A printout of the admissions book, with FWR sub, would be the go, just hoped someone who'd gone before might be able to offer some clues.

Edited 19 October , 2022 by grantmal

[RussT]

Do FWR offer print outs of the admission/discharge books? I thought that because you only posted the Table, that is all they provide i.e. transcribed records, which might then have these transcribed errors.

The originals are definitely on FMP.

I've done similar to you in reconstructing a man's route through the various medical units that make up an evacuation chain. A very useful diary I have drawn upon in helping do this, is the relevant Corps war diary for the Deputy Director of Medical Services, which normally provides the day to day movements of the ATs for example leaving the CCSs etc. So it might be worth checking that too. That War Diary can be downloaded free from TNA.

Regards

Russ

 

 

 

[grantmal]

Thanks, Russ. I do actually have the admissions book downloaded, but it must be incomplete as from patient numbers quoted above there should be 340+ admissions on 17 November, whereas the downloaded book I have lists only 170 or so admitted on that date. There are no page numbers, and the 'index number of admissions' preceding each name runs in numerical order but stops and starts and even repeats from one page to the next. Confusing.

No.2 General Hospital admissions book does, however, list another 3rd Coldstream Guardsman admitted on 17 November, who spent 3 days under treatment, who was evacuated on HS Asturias on 19 November and ended up in the same hospital in Liverpool as William Fenemore - 7490 Pte Fred Taylor. He was even wounded the same day as Fenemore, 13 November.

Taylor related his experiences to the local newspaper while recuperating at home in Sussex, including details of his movements after being wounded:

“On 13th November I had just got out of the trenches to help in the erection of a rough bridge for the purpose of bringing over rations, when I was sniped at from about 200 yards, and received a bullet wound in the thigh." In this way the Sussex Tommy was put out of action after being in the thick of the fray for about three months, and his subsequent experience while wounded will never be forgotten by him. He was conveyed in a horse ambulance along a 7 mile road, with huge shell holes at intervals, the bumping was something awful. To add to the discomfort, bullets were whizzing dangerously near. After resting in a clearing hospital for the night, the wounded soldier was removed by motor ambulance to Poperinghe, and thence to Boulogne by train, eventually embarking at Le Havre for Southampton en route to Liverpool, where he remained in a military hospital until the early part of last week. From the time Taylor was wounded till his arrival in Liverpool, he was travelling 10 days..."

Taylor's journey fits with the movements of No.5 Ambulance Train, from Poperinghe - Boulogne - Le Havre.

One discrepancy between Will Fenemore & Fred Taylor's arrivals in Liverpool: according to a letter written on 22 November Fenemore reached Fazakerly Hospital at midnight on 21 November, 8 days after being wounded, while Taylor reckoned he took 10 days to get there.

[TEW]

I've not seen the original FMP pages relevant to this topic but some I've seen have been completed in quite a messy and complicated way. There can be details in the column headed X that seem misplaced. In some cases whole pages are bracketed and the EG. Transfer to sick convoy details come from another page. So perhaps the T 2 Ambulance Train is not on his page but on another page further on?

The part of Taylor's story; After resting in a clearing hospital for the night, the wounded soldier was removed by motor ambulance to Poperinghe, and thence to Boulogne by train, eventually embarking at Le Havre for Southampton. His version does not suggest he was admitted to 2GH even though he is entered in the book for a 3 day stay.

EDIT: Just read the 5AT diary who collected wounded from Poperinghe 16th Nov and departed for Boulogne where they offloaded only 4 men, then dropped more off at Abbeville then to Amiens offloading 7 men then Rouen offloading 5 before heading to Havre to offload the remainder

The FWR table gives the Archive Reference as

TNA's discovery does not make any mention of the part I've underlined in red. I think Ser:135-327 and Transfers Ser: 2159-2680 have been added by FWR based on the A&D books index number of admissions (Column 1).

Have FWR worked through the whole book and deduced (rightly or wrongly) that entries 2159-2680 were transfers and possibly not admissions? What are Taylor's and Fenemore's index numbers?

 

Next

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I ask because looking at relevant CCS/Ambulance Train diaries it seems more likely Mr Fenemore was delivered to Le Havre by No.5 Ambulance Train on 17 November, with 343 other wounded from Poperinghe.

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I do actually have the admissions book downloaded, but it must be incomplete as from patient numbers quoted above there should be 340+ admissions on 17 November, whereas the downloaded book I have lists only 170 or so admitted on that date.

No. 5 AT may have arrived in Havre with 343 wounded but there's no guarantee that they were all admitted to 2GH in Havre, there are other hospitals. Alternatively, some of the 340 may have been entrained out of Havre to another base.

 

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There are no page numbers, and the 'index number of admissions' preceding each name runs in numerical order but stops and starts and even repeats from one page to the next. Confusing.

That does sound odd, I'd want to check every page and try to work out what is going on there. Plus check that the column details match the headings.
NB. The Column 1 heading should show transfers and admissions with a separate series or different ink.

 

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No.2 Ambulance Train only reached Havre for the first time on the evening of 19 November with 104 British wounded from Rouen, who were hurried down to catch HS Asturias in the harbour: '10.30pm. Le Havre reached. Unloaded train per No.2 General Hosp on to Hospital Ship Asturias.'

Does this sound like the 104 men from Rouen were joined by some from 2GH who were all taken to the Astuarias. Or, the 104 were offloaded at Havre for 2GH and some from 2GH were taken down to the Asturias? The diary doesn't seem that clear to me.

It does sound like Fenemore was removed from 2GH by 2 AT for the Astuarias (not sure what T 2 Ambulance Train means?).

Transcription errors are not impossible and as the data varies from book to book it must have been a difficult task to interpret what is going on in some of the books.

I did see a FWR entry long ago for '500 Ambulance Train' which jumped out as more than odd. Having checked the original the term 500 AT was entered in the Observations column which is of course 500 units of Anti-Tetnus.

TEW

 

[grantmal]

Thanks, TEW.

Yes, you're right of course about No.2 Gen Hosp not taking all of No.5 Train's cases. 

As for the loading of HS Asturias:

No.2 General Hospital, Havre, 19 November:

Hospital Ship Asturias arrived 10am and the following were embarked:

No.2 General Hospital - 10 Officers & 187 OR’s.

No.1 General Hospital - 102 OR’s.

No.10 Ambulance Train arrived 7.30pm with 2 Officers & 1 sister QAIMNS and 470 OR’s for hospital ship and were embarked.

No.2 Ambulance train arrived at 10pm with 136 other ranks all for the hospital ship Asturias.

No.8 General Hospital, Rouen, 19 November:

106 cases sent by train to Hospital Ship Asturias.

No.2 Hospital Train, 19 November:

12.30pm. Rouen reached and ordered to take on cases for Le Havre. [App.5: Trip #25 48 miles; 5 hours; 104 British wounded]

5.30pm. Rouen left.

10.30pm. Le Havre reached. Unloaded train per No.2 General Hosp on to Hospital Ship Asturias.

Unfortunately No.10 Amb Train's war diary seems to be MIA on the NA website, but marrying other trains' diaries with CCS diaries, ADMS's etc should hopefully reveal it's origin.

[grantmal]

No.5 Ambulance Train:

15 November. Left Boulogne and arrived Poperinghe 7 pm. Loaded sick and wounded.

16 November. 1.30am. Left Poperinghe and arrived Boulogne about 9 am. At Boulogne there was no room to accommodate the patients and the train was sent on to Havre. (left 2pm)

1 officer and 3 men were put off at Boulogne, 1 German died and was put off at Abeville. 2 cases seriously wounded were also put off at Abbeville.

9.30pm. Train proceeded to Amiens where 7 cases (4 French soldiers and 3 British soldiers) were put off.

17 November. Train arrived at Rouen at 12:30 pm. Five British soldiers (serious cases) were put off.

7.pm. Havre. Unloaded sick. Owing to the train being in a bad position for unloading an engine was sent for to alter its position and unloading was not completed till midnight. Total number of sick and wounded brought down 343 (of these 9 officers, 323 NCOs and men, 7 Germans, 4 French soldiers).

Kate Laund in ‘Diary of a Nursing Sister…’ describes No.5 Ambulance Train's journey to Havre:

Tuesday, November 17th, 3 a.m.—When we got our load down to Boulogne yesterday morning all the hospitals were full, and the weather was too rough for the ships to come in and clear them, so we were ordered on to Havre, a very long journey. A German died before we got to Abbeville, where we put off two more very bad ones; and at Amiens we put off four more, who wouldn't have reached Havre….

7 a.m.—After all, we must be crawling round to Rouen for Havre; passed Beauvais. Lovely sunrise over winter woods and frosted country. Our load is a heavy and anxious one—344; we shall be glad to land them safely somewhere. The amputations, fractures, and lung cases stand these long journeys very badly.

……At last reached beautiful Rouen, through St Just, Beauvais, and up to Sergueux, and down to Rouen. From Sergueux through Rouen to Havre is supposed to be the most beautiful train journey in France, which is saying a good deal. Put off some more bad cases here; a boy sergeant, aged 24, may save his eye and general blood-poisoning if he gets irrigated quickly. You can watch them going wrong, with two days and two nights on the train, and it seems such hard luck. And then if you don't write Urgent or Immediate on their bandages in blue pencil, they get overlooked in the rush into hospital when they are landed.

….We are getting on for Havre at last. This long journey from Belgium down to Havre has been a strange mixture. Glorious country with the flame and blue haze of late autumn on hills, towns, and valleys, bare beech-woods with hot red carpets. Glorious British Army lying broken in the train

……At Havre last night the train ran into the Gare Maritime (where we left in the Asturias for St Nazaire early in September), which is immediately under the great place that No.— G.H. bagged for their Hospital in August. I ran up and saw it all. It is absolutely first class. There were our people off the train in lovely beds, in huge wards, with six rows of beds—clean sheets, electric light, hot food, and all the M.O.'s, Sisters, and Nursing Orderlies, in white overalls, hard at work on them—orderlies removing their boots and clothing (where we hadn't done it, we leave as much on as we can now because of the cold). Sisters washing them and settling them in, and with the M.O. doing their dressings, all as busy as bees, only stopping to say to us, "Aren't they brave?" They said we'd brought them an awfully bad lot, and we said we shed all the worst on the way. They don't realise that by the time they get to the base these men are beyond complaining; each stage is a little less infernal to them than the one they've left; and instead of complaining, they tell you how lovely it is! It made one realise the grimness of our stage in it—the emergencies, the makeshifts, and the little four can do for nearly 400 in a train—with their greatest output. We each had 80 lying-down cases this journey.

[RussT]

I've had another look at the No 2 GH A&D book.

It looks pretty orderly made out to me. It's 29 pages (incl front and back cover) covering admissions between 3rd Nov and 28th Nov 1914 and the admission index numbers go from 2159 to 2680. I didn't religiously check but they look consecutive.

Fenemore's index number is 2316 on page 9 - as you can see this is quoted in FWR's output Table attached to the opening post. Taylor's index number is 2374.

The index numbers are often written with just 3 digits - they only put the correctly the first digit with a "2" normally on every 10th entry as well as the first and last entry for each page. This method is just a rather lazy method of indexing in choosing to write out 3 digits rather than write 4 digits every time.

Now one thing I did spot which I think could be relevant here is that against some men there is an entry extreme left just before the index number. The entry refers to an Ambulance Train which I assume is the one that man arrived on. The question is - are FWR interpreting that all men listed after such an entry to mean they all also arrived on that train - even though there is no "ditto". Maybe their interpretation is correct, I don't know.

When you paginate back from Fenemore you come to an Ambulance Train entry for which the number has faded. In the case of Taylor you arrive back at an entry for a man against which the entry is 4 AT.

Some sample images attached - the one for the entry paginating backwards from Fenemore is the first image. Is that a faded "5"?

A couple of things that can perhaps confuse therefore:

1) Is it correct that all men listed after a given AT entry were admitted from that AT? 

2) Has FWR sometimes confused the "2" in the indexing to mean the No 2 AT number when this indexing happens to be next to an AT entry?

Answers on a postcard

Regards

Russ

 

[TEW]

I think the T is not contemporary with the AT number. I also think it indicates transfers rather than admissions and someone (MRC?) thought it best to add the T. The FWR ref suggests to me they think they are transfers as well.

The entries for Scott & Ross in my scenario would be that for SN 2215? Scott they have a discharge date of 6/12/14 whereas the following entry is for 2253 Ross who is the first transfer of a batch. Where is SN 2216? Why no discharge date for Ross.

The other columns look contemporary in the same hand,  why stop at SN 2215 then add the AT details for transfers starting 2253.

I wouldn't be surprised if the book was written up a bit later from a rough version or from the Hospital returns list and the transfers had to fit into a chronological sequence.

Second image extract has T 2 Ambulance Train for SN 2167, this is what FWR refer to I think, they'll probably have T 10 & T 7 as well.

The last image has 'T from 8 AT', do they not have their discharge details?.

TEW

 

[grantmal]

Thanks, Russ, for posting those screenshots of the admissions/discharge book – I was preparing the same last night after pondering for many hours and was happy this morning to see your work already posted. Yes, the index numbers were not confused, I was - had my PDF pages out of order! It all makes much more sense now. 

I think the big ’T’ alongside the Train entry is a line/arrow indicating ‘from here down.’

What a shame that 17 November train number is too hard to read – yes, it should be ’5 Amb Train’ according to the war diaries of both hospital and train….but, as you point out, further down the list at Index #320 there is an entry for No.4 Train which was actually running Boulogne - Paris - Boulogne - Merville - Boulogne between 15 - 19 November, so….hmmm….

As for No.10 Ambulance Train, which arrived at No.2 GH at 7.30pm on 19 November, her arrival (correctly and legibly recorded) and patient list begins at #412 — unfortunately the following page is dated 20 November, so either only 16 cases were unloaded, contrary to the hospital war diary, or pages are missing…or everyone else from No.10 Train went straight aboard HS Asturias, and these 16 were the only ones actually admitted as patients to No.2 GH…. *

…which means patients being loaded ‘through’ No.2 GH from train to ship might, as SOP, not have been recorded in their books — which seems hard to believe — or just this night, given the rush?

I agree, TEW, that this book may be a later consolidation of records. I couldn’t imagine 1 person standing on the train platform with this book in hand recording the names and details of every case coming off a train on their way to a ship…the more I think about, the more likely there would be someone recording for each carriage…..if the hospital recorded them at all - wouldn’t the train have a passenger list they handed over to the hospital….who copied it for themselves and the hospital ship?…and kept a separate book/register for train/ship ‘through’ transfers….. haha….descending deeper down the rabbit-hole….hmmm, wonder if refreshments were available to the wounded on the platform, and who would have been doling them out….?

I've downloaded the Motor Ambulance Convoy diaries - a couple look fascinating - and the various DADMS diaries, so plenty of time yet for an aneurysm....

*to add to the confusion 1 case among the 16 admitted from No.10 Train on 19 November did embark on HS Asturias that same night - but he is listed as having been 3 days under treatment!

 

[TEW]

A few points that occurred to me late last night.

The 'normal' routine would be for an AT to arrive at a base area and offload their wounded who would be moved on to the various base hospitals depending on bed space.

I've checked 2GH diary and they were located almost in the docks, there's no way an AT collects the wounded for evacuation to a Ship.

Extract from Laund's diary for 5 AT.

Quote

……At Havre last night the train ran into the Gare Maritime (where we left in the Asturias for St Nazaire early in September), which is immediately under the great place that No.— G.H. bagged for their Hospital in August.

She must be referring to 2GH here as 2GH took over the ECOLE JEAN MACE in August which is only ~300m from the quay and her AT arrived at the Gare Maritime not specifically at 2GH.

 

I'm borrowing one of  Russ' images

2GH diary for the above T 10 Ambulance Train entry 16/11/14 reads:

The 5 officers and 260 ORs from 10 AT shown in the A&D book for 2GH and who are mentioned in the diary for 2GH were offloaded at the Docks and all went directly onto the HS Oxfordshire. That makes entry #2412 very confusing as he came off 10AT and it seems was in Havre till the 26th?

As to why they all had to be entered in the 2GH book in the first place is a bit odd other than 2GH was operating as a sort of staging post and perhaps had a holding area on the docks for the gap between an AT arriving and an available ship.

The above does not apply to every AT arrival, Laund's AT 5 were admitted to 2GH 17th Nov.

Looking at the 2GH diary around this period there is the 10AT transfer to the Oxfordshire 16th Nov.
19th Nov. 2GH embark wounded from 2GH AND from 1 GH.
19th Nov. 10AT & 2 AT arrived later in the day and were embarked on the Asturias.

There are quite a few entries that show that 2GH were simply offloading wounded at the Gare Maritime and then loading wounded onto hospital ships without the men ever seeing the hospital.

26/11/14. 7 AT arrived, 17 Officers & 103 ORs, Distributed as follows:
17 Officers & 42 ORs to 2 SH
61 ORs to 1 GH

Here they are acting outside the scope of a hospital in that 2GH are distributing wounded across the base.

Finally,

Entry for 26th Nov shows 7 AT arriving and that all were Transferred onto the Asturias. Hence the added T in the left column of the A&D book. Possibly by someone much later who had the task of working out what was going on with this A&D book.

TEW

 

[grantmal]

Post deleted, sorry. Need to revise.

Edited 23 October , 2022 by grantmal
post needs revision

[TEW]

Well it is a confusing set of entries in this book. Someone had the job (possibly post-war) of extracting statistics from these books. More than likely they had access to much more information than we've been left with. All the numbered ambulance trains A&D books existed till the mid-70s so they could have cross referenced the info.

Does not necessarily mean they got it right!

TEW

[grantmal]

Still trawling the newspaper archives and war diaries, plenty of interesting details uncovered.

Have a pretty fair picture of Will Fenemore's travels after he was wounded, just need to bash all the info into shape.

As for No.2 General Hospital in Havre, the newly appointed, just-arrived OC gave his rundown of the hospital's operations on 29 September:

I reported my arrival to the ADMS No.1 BASE and took over command of No.2 General Hospital this day.The Hospital is equipped for 558 beds of which ___ are at the GARE MARITIME and ____ at the CASINO, a detached building about 2 1/2 miles away in the Esplanade. In addition there is an Officers Hospital in a separate building with beds for 30 officers, for 6 sick nursing sisters and living accommodation for ___ sisters.The nursing sisters doing duty at the GARE MARITIME are accommodated in part at the Officers Hospital and in part at the GARE MARITIME.There is an officers’ mess at present in a hospital marquee and most of the officers are in bell tents. There are 3 rooms in a small house in the quay which are in occupation by the junior officers of this unit.Ambulance trains run right into the large shed at the GARE MARITIME and the patients are taken up to the wards overhead where they are attended to by the medical and nursing staff. The Hospital Ships come up along side the railway shed and the whole arrangements are eminently suitable for the purpose of transit.Today there are only 28 cases in the hospital at the GARE MARITIME and 135 at the Casino with 4 officers in the Officers Hospital.

On 12 October The Matron-in-Chief visited:

Started early for Le Havre in company with the DMS our car following his – arrived in time for lunch. After lunch went to Le Gare Maritime the headquarters of No.2 General Hospital where I found Miss Richards and some of her staff, Miss Johnstone being in charge. Everything in excellent order only 6 patients who were too ill to be moved – all other beds ready made up with blankets only for the reception of patients from the trains from these they will be transferred to the ships which are anchored close by. The Oxfordshire and Asturias were in waiting for patients alongside of the pier. The arrangements here are excellent in every way and there is excellent accommodation for stores of every description. Miss Richards showed the many beautiful things sent from England privately by Lady Algernon Gordon Lennox for the troops. Some special £1 notes sent by the Queen for specially bad cases enclosed in a case with her picture and a morning and evening hymn. She had also some tea which had been specially sent by Queen Alexandra for the QAIMNS . From there I went to the Casino a beautiful building in a magnificent situation intended mainly for medical cases, everything in excellent order, the absence of counterpanes being the only thing. A certain number of enterics were in a set apart for them and a Sister and orderlies were in charge. The Officers’ Hospital close by was most comfortable and suitable in every way. A large private house well furnished and with good kitchen pantry, bath and lavatory accommodation – sitting rooms and Mess – the Nursing Staff were accommodated there....

In November the Rev. Donald Cameron described the hospital and the loading of wounded [Montrose Review, 27 November 1914]: 

One's interest naturally centres in the hospitals, not only for the tales that are told there, but for the magnificent exhibition of patience in suffering which they reveal. In addition to that at camp, where some hundreds of cases are treated under canvas, there are three buildings devoted to the salvage of the wrecks of war. The Casino and the Palais de Regates—both of them fine structures overlooking the bay—lend their spacious rooms and corridors to the work of healing, and they make ideal wards. The big French windows stand wide open, and the sunlight falls in broad beams across the beds. In the bay in front one can count as many as fifty ships at anchor, and the transports are always coming and going. Then there is the hospital on the quay, where the railway station has been utilised by the Medical Corps. The hospital train runs into the building, carrying the wounded direct from the trenches. The large rooms upstairs are turned into wards from which, after a time, the men are carried across a few yards’ space to the hospital ship lying alongside. Everything is delightfully fresh and bright and clean. The beds lie side by side in rows, filling the large rooms; nurses, in their becoming costume, are assiduous in their attention, and nothing is lacking to make the lot of the sufferers as comfortable as possible. The hospital ships are the end of all perfection. Motor ambulances bring their burdens from the various hospitals, orderlies carefully lift the stretchers out, names, etc., are taken by the clerk, and with hardly a moment's delay the men are carried across the gangway and laid on the lift on board which lowers them to the beds waiting for them. Many a man has remarked to me, "I've never before had the like of this on board ship." Great, roomy wards. swing beds, every comfort, and the prospect of being home for Christmas—what more can they wish?

Edited 6 November , 2022 by grantmal
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