Is it possible to find where someone fell at Lone Pine?

[tankengine888]

Hello!

My great great uncle was killed in August 1915 whilst serving in the 2nd Battalion, 1st Brigade, AIF. He was missing between the 7th and 14th August, and buried at Browns Dip cemetery sometime after July 17th, 1917. I have no idea on what happened to him or anything.. for all I know, he could've been in Morshead's [Future WW2 General] Platoon or shot his own commanding officer; Lieutenant Colonel Braund. I do know he was an original of 'F' Company, 2nd Battalion though I don't know what company he would've been in for the 4 Company structure
Service record: https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1957229
I want to try and find out what happened in the end.. such as wounds or when he was buried. I doubt I'll be able to find out, but I still want to try.

Tank.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

 From what I can see by the Unit history your relation was in FCo under Lt AB Stevens

In the reorg in Jan 1915 that company became DCo with ACo & FCo under the new and old commander of ACo Capt CR Richardson

Moreshead was the 2ic of the new CCo under Capt Concannon

By the time of the charge at Lone Pine was made the Bn had again changed and DCo was commanded by capt GW Brown

The basic plan was an attack by BCo under Pain, CCo under Moreshead, & DCo under Brown with ACo under Cook in reserve

The attack was now commanded by Maj Stevens

S.B

[tankengine888]

G'day Steve!

So D Coy would've attacked with the 2 other Coys with A Coy in reserve.. interesting. Thanks for informing me of the D Coy bit and all!

Does it note much in the unit history about D Coy attacking Lone Pine?

Tank

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

From what I read;

BCo attacked from the secret Sap while C and D Co;s went over the top

The History mentions the Company (DCo) also carried stores across.

The fighting is not shown by any maps, so Bean may have a better map of where they were, but the units became mixed as they tried to find a hope to get into the Turk Trenches, so he could have been killed any where.

The whole area was a maze of Trenches some covered by logs and others open

That his date of death is open (7 to 14 Aug 1915) even the Army does not know 

His grave is a possible as his body had not been found until after the war went he was buried in Browns Dip Cemetery and later moved to Lone Pine Cemetery.

An inquiry to the CWGC may give some more details as to when he was first buried and by whom?

Its possible his body was found when clearing the area after the war, see the movie by Russel Crowe which is based on the truth (at lest the Gallipoli part) .

Cheers

S.B

 

[Andrew P]

This map was of the 2nd Bn positions in Lone Pine. It's in the Bean's diary which is online at the AWM.

AWM38 3DRL 606/168/1 - 1915 - 1917 | Australian War Memorial

[tankengine888]

Very nice!
Thanks Andrew, I wonder where James might've made it.
Zidane.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Andrew's map is nice, but still not 100% on the placement od all companies, as most agree they were mixed up all day and didn't sort themselves out until the next day.

DCo under Brown possibly made it, to around the area, shown as Moreshead (CCo).

As his body was not recovered until after the war, it must had been in an area where they could not get to it?

So the gully to the rear of the Turkish line seams possible?

But an inquiry to the CWGC may tell you more, like where the body was recovered to be buried at Browns Dip.

I did see a note to say they were unsure that the grave was his, so how did they (CWGC), identify the body to get a grave?

So many questions, little answers.

S.B

 

[Andrew P]

There's a listings of original burials at Gallipoli in this NAA file. It may have an entry for your relative

Graves on Gallipoli, Plans and Names [The following maps of Military Cemeteries are contained in this item: Plugges Plateau and Victoria Gully; Brown's Dip; Sheel Green No 2; Sheel Green No 1; Ari Burnu Point; The Beach; and; Shrapnel Valley.]

Item details (naa.gov.au)

View digital copy (naa.gov.au)

[tankengine888]

He is on page 33 andrew,
States no burial date, only the presumed date of death.
Thanks Anyways,
Zidane.

[Jeff Pickerd]

Hi Tank,

An interesting question, one that in the case of your relative Pte James McNamara, No. 661, 'D' Coy, 2nd Battalion, that will probably never be answered, unless you are lucky enough to have a letter or diary entry that describes the circumstances of his actions and demise. To gain an indication of what he may have experienced during the 2nd Battalions roll in the attack on Lone Pine, and this driven by the information that Steve B has provided, you will need to access the Australian Official History, 1914-1918, Vol II, Chapters 18 & 19. There are two names of significance that come to mind for such a search, being, Major Arthur Borlase STEVENS OMG, DSO, pages 546, 547, & 548. The other being Captain Garnet Wollesley BROWN, KIA 6th - 8th August 1915 at WOODS Post, Lone Pine, Chapter 19. It is a lot of reading, the only way to get a grip of what happened during date range of the 7th - 14th August. Maybe expanding your search of the service records of other men of 'D' Coy, 2nd Bn who were KIA during that date range will give some clues to what happened.

Forget about the date of 17th July 1917 for his burial at Brown's Dip Cemetery, there were no Anzac forces on Gallipoli after the final evacuation on the 20th December 1915.

Jeff

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I am unsure, but I think Lt E. Digges La Touche was in D Co, and his name is mentioned in Bean and others, was your bloke killed with DLT as the dates for his death are 6-8 Aug 1915 and he is also buried at Browns Dip?

The 2Bn was on the far right of the fighting and the area shop in Bean shows DLT and his fighting

Yes Andrew, thats why I believe he was found after the war during the clearence of the Battlefields by Graves blokes

S.B

 

Edited 22 October , 2022 by stevenbecker

[Jeff Pickerd]

Tank,

To address the second part of your question with regard to his burial. He was definitely buried at Brown's Dip Cemetery before September 1915, possibly between the 9th to 14th August. Page 12 of his service record proves that. The date range of his death 7th - 14th August would also indicate that he was possibly killed on either the 7th or 8th August during the fight to repel the Turkish counter attacks (see the official history). The other evidence to the Brown's Dip burial in the service record is at pages 24, 26, 32 & 35 which confirms the exhumation and re-burial at Lone Pine Cemetery, 1923, Brown's Dip Plot 1, Row C, Grave 3.

The AWM has quite a number of photographs of Brown's Dip Cemetery taken in 1915 & 1919 during the Graves Registration Unit's identification of the graves. There were no new burials at Browns Dip after 1915, so that also confirms that he was buried there.

The plan of the Lone Pine Cemetery shows where his grave is located, I would suggest that it seems to be the second grave in the C row, the first grave appears to be dug in front of grave 2.

 

Jeff

 

[tankengine888]

Hello lads,
Interesting posts..
Just to make sure, I have nothing in my possession relating to J.S. McNamara.. much to my dismay.

I planned to look at Red Cross records to see if there was mention of J.S McNamara, but if he was mentioned the date of death would've been corrected? I'll search through regardless tonight.
Lieutenant Everard Digges-La Toche was in 'D' Coy. Apparently, he was one of the first to fall out of his lot [Platoon?] carrying a cane and a revolver.
So James was buried before September 1915... That helps to put a finger on a few clues!
I'll take a look at the Australian Official History when I get the time. 

Thanks!
Zidane.

Edited 22 October , 2022 by tankengine888

[Bryn]

The soldiers killed in the Lone Pine fighting were generally buried in Brown's Dip No 1 of No 2 (north and south of Artillery Road) at the time of the battle, mostly by 'B' and 'C' Companies of the 5th Battalion, Connaught Rangers. There was some controversy regarding the way this was carried out. In any case, the original battle cemetery of 46 graves was enlarged after the Armistice when scattered graves were brought in from the neighbourhood, and from Brown's Dip North and South Cemeteries, which contained the graves of 149 Australian soldiers. These cemeteries were in the depression at the head of Victoria Gully, behind the Australian trenches of April-August 1915. That is, the bodies in the Brown's Dip cemeteries were exhumed and re-interred in Lone Pine cemetery. There is now a 'Brown's Dip' plot within Lone Pine cemetery.

See the diagram and photo of the Brown's Dip cemeteries below.