Pte 823 William Perry – 1st Bn Manchester Regiment

[8055Bell]

Based on his service number it is estimated William Perry enlisted in the Manchesters in late 1905.  A Private William Perry was Court Martialled for Desertion at the Curragh with 2nd Bn on 01/01/1913.  This man was detained for 56 days.
William Perry joined the BEF with 1st Bn on 27/08/1914.   He died at Givenchy on 20-21/12/1914. 
The son of Margaret Ann Perry of 17 Tebbutt Street, Rochdale Road, later 70 Teignmouth Street, Collyhurst and 59 North Kent Street.   She received a Dependent’s Pension until 1926.
No DC has been found for William and I can’t find him or his mother (born 1871)  in Census records.  He may have used an alias.
One of the WFA Cards has a strange reference to ‘Living Soldier’ and then two apparently unrelated names.  The absence of a DC makes the whole case challenging.

Any experts have any ideas where we could go next?

Tim

[PaulC78]

I can find 4 x pension cards, medal index card, 2 x medal rolls and SER. There is also a soldier's will available for him if you haven't already looked. Would probably be useful, though I don't know what the cost is these days.

He was not at 17 Tebbutt Street or 70 Teignmouth Street in 1911, and I can't find 59 North Kent Street. I tried looking up the other two soldiers named on the pension card, nothing of substance for Ryan (medal card and rolls only) and nothing at all for Fitzpatrick.

Possibly coincidence, but a Margaret Perry died at Manchester in 1926, age 77, and is buried at Manchester General Cemetery.

Have you run this case by Terry yet? The absence of a DC may not be a dealbreaker if the other evidence stacks up.

[8055Bell]

The reference to Living Soldier suggests William was still alive, so contradictory.

Thanks for repeating your efforts here.

Tim

[PaulC78]

5 minutes ago, 8055Bell said:

The reference to Living Soldier suggests William was still alive, so contradictory.

I disagree. That statement appears to refer to Ryan and Fitzpatrick.

Edited 12 October , 2022 by PaulC78

[PRC]

7 hours ago, 8055Bell said:

Based on his service number it is estimated William Perry enlisted in the Manchesters in late 1905.

Paul Nixon’s site has the Regular Army Battalions of the Manchester Regiment issuing service number 823 at some point between the 2nd March 1905, (391) and the 9th April 1906, (915). https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/01/manchester-regiment-regular-special.html

Narrowing it down a little bit from nearby regimental service number records in the WO97 series.

817 Thomas William Williams attested at Manchester on the 22nd January 1906, enlisting for 12 years on a 9 and 3 split. He didn’t reach the Depot until the 27th. He had a number of disciplinary offences in 1906 and was discharged.

821 Harry Estles attested at Ashton under Lyne on the 1st February 1906, enlisting for 12 years on a 9 and 3 split. He reached the Depot on the same day. He was posted to the 4th Battalion on the 15th March 1906, and the 2nd Battalion on the 15th November 1906. He was discharged to the Royal Canadian Garrison Artillery in 1907.

828 Ernest Carter attested at Manchester on the 13th February 1906, enlisting for 12 years on a 9 and 3 split. He reached the Depot on the same day. He was posted to the 4th Battalion on the 1st March 1906. He was arrested  by the civil power in September 1906, convicted of theft and sent to jail for six months, being discharged from the Army at the same time.

5 hours ago, PaulC78 said:

He was not at 17 Tebbutt Street or 70 Teignmouth Street in 1911, and I can't find 59 North Kent Street.

So assuming William signed up under the same terms as the three examples above, (a big assumption), and went on to serve under the same service number in the Great War, then he should be in the colours at the time of the 1911 Censuses.

According to Harts’ Annual Army list for 1911 the Manchester Regiment started the year with the Regular Army Battalions deployed: - 1^st Battalion at Kamptee, 2^nd Battalion at Mullingar.

The 1911 Census of England & Wales return for the 1^st Battalion,  Manchester Regiment, then in barracks at Kamptee, India, has a Private William Perry, aged 23, and born Manchester.

The 2^nd Battalion would have been on the 1911 Census of Ireland. The standard practice with that was to record members of the armed forces by their initials and rank. And unless the soldier was born in Ireland, only country of birth is shown.

There is a Military return for a location on Military Road, Mullingar, County Westmeath, which can be found here http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Westmeath/Mullingar_North_Urban/Military_Road/885892/

Unfortunately I’m struggling to find anything out about the actual unit, other than the ranks and number of soldiers would probably indicate an infantry Battalion.  It includes a W P aged 18 and a W.P, aged 20.

As the Manchester Regiment man who is believed to have died in 1914 enlisted in 1906, I suspect the 1^st Battalion man is the only likely match out of those three.

The CWGC database lists 108 men of the 1^st Battalion who died in the period 20^th – 21^st December 1914. Very few of them have known graves but when they start turning up in The Times in February 1915, on Casualty Lists dated at the end of December 1914 \ start of January, they turn up as Killed rather than Missing

The relevant list for this purpose comes from The Times, Saturday February 20 1915. Page 4.

Image courtesy The Tines Digital Archive,

Hope some of that helps

Peter

[PRC]

The cogs whirr slowly but usually get there in the end. At least one of the three men who I had identified as enlisting around about the same time as William Perry had come from the Militia.

I've checked the WO96 series this morning and there is a William Perry who was then living at 37 Foundry Street, Rochdale Road, Manchester when he enlisted in the 3rd Battalion Royal Lancaster Regiment on the 1st June 1904. He gave his age as 17 years and 5 months, and born in the parish of St Josephs, Manchester. He was single and worked as a Planer for a Mr. Wilson, a Wood Planer, of Henry Street, Manchester. His religion was Roman Catholic.
He was given service number 57, did his 49 days drill on enlistment, but other than a note he was absent in 1906, that's it. There are no next of kin details recorded.

The parish records for the Roman Catholic Church of St. Josephs, Ancoats, Manchester have been transcribed as made available at the Lancashire Online Parish Clerk website, but I could not find an instance in the period 1885 - 1896 of a child being baptised with the first name William, mothers first name Margaret, with any surname.https://lan-opc.org.uk/Manchester/Ancoats/stjoseph/baptisms.html

On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is a 13 year old William Perry, born Manchester, who was recorded living at 37 Foundry Street, St. Pauls, Manchester. This was the household of his widowed mother “Margat”, aged 50, born Manchester. Age would be out by comparison to the known details of the woman who claimed a pension, but “Margat” also may not have been the biological mother. She was old enough to have had a daughter who could have been the birth mother. Other children in the household are Robert, (24), Betsy, (21) and John , (11), all born Manchester. Struggling to find matching births for those with any consistancy as to mothers' maiden name. It is also possible "Margat" managed to fit in being married and widowed since the 1891 Census, raising the prospect that the children were registered with a different surname.

The 1921 Census of England & Wales is not coming up with any match for a Margaret Perry born c 1850 or c1871 in the Manchester area.

"Margat" would be of roughly the right age to be a match for the Margaret aged 77 whose death was recorded in the Manchester District in 1926. There is no likely death of a Margaret Ann Perry in England & Wales in 1925/26, and the only two possible marriages in England & Wales are in Pontypridd, (1925) and London, (1926).

Apologies if that is all a load of red herrings.

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

17 hours ago, 8055Bell said:

No DC has been found for William

Just to check with you - Have you applied to GRO for an Overseas Military DC? [If found you will get a modern transcription of a register entry through the post - Will cost you and unlikely to say much beyond KiA or DoW and unfortunately you can't search for them up front so far as I know]

M

[PRC]

9 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

unfortunately you can't search for them up front so far as I know

Unless there is a different source that these are drawn from, the only William Perry, (no middle names) whose death is recorded in the GRO's Index to War Deaths 1914-21 Army (Other Ranks), with the year of 1914 was 6668 Coldstream Guards.

There are other individuals with middle names who died in 1914, but none had service number 823 or were serving in the Manchester Regiment.

I suspect in this case the entry in the Register of Soldiers Effects and the Soldiers Will are going to have to suffice, with the pension cards as back up. I assume Soldiers Effects gives a date for when his War Gratuity was paid out, and I suspect that's most likely in 1919. While it would be great for him to have been found to be still alive after that date it would be very, very unlikely, and I'd expect references to it to crop up in the newspapers as that was the very scenario tens of thousands of families up and down the land hoped would apply to their loved ones.

Cheers,
Peter

[8055Bell]

Thanks for all the contributions.  I'm too busy to address all these points but see that we have some fresh ideas.  I will take a proper look this W/E

The press article is good evidence and I found another in MEN 20/02/0915, which provides an address in Ancoats.

I haven't applied for a Military DC and didn't know you could without the index reference.  I have an other IFCP case progressing with no DC, so we may not need to try something that may be fruitless.

Back to work...

Tim

[Bardess]

Does not appear on this list

 

[PRC]

43 minutes ago, 8055Bell said:

The press article is good evidence

The full page is attached, as you would probably need that for any submission to the CWGC.

I don't know if it adds anything to the case but when looking through the 108 deaths for the 1st Battalion in the period 20/21st December 1914 I noticed Private 1007 Frederick Robinson is on an Addenda Panel to the Le Touret War Memorial. He's in the same Times Casualty List as William Perry.

The "Graves Registration" Report shows a handwritten entry for Frederick, so obviously an addition after the Register was printed, (and before the CWGC stopped updating those documents). https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2964808/frederick-robinson/

So could be he was believed to be buried somewhere and for some reason a subsequent investigation proved that to be incorrect, so Frederick's name was added to the Le Touret memorial.

Or there was a hole in the records passed to the Imperial War Grave Commission by the Army post-war, one into which the case for commemorating Frederick Robinson disappeared. And if Frederick Robinson disappeared, is it not possible that William Perry disappeared with him as well?
And possibly others?

Cheers,
Peter

The Times Saturday, Feb. 20, 1915 p4 Casualty List.pdf

[George Rayner]

The Manchester Evening News list mentioned previously of Manchester regiment killed has an address of 'Brown-street, Ancoates' with Perry 823

Manchester Evening News 20 February 1915

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000272%2f19150220%2f011&stringtohighlight=perry 823

George

[8055Bell]

On 13/10/2022 at 12:23, PRC said:

Or there was a hole in the records passed to the Imperial War Grave Commission by the Army post-war, one into which the case for commemorating Frederick Robinson disappeared. And if Frederick Robinson disappeared, is it not possible that William Perry disappeared with him as well?
And possibly others?

Cheers,
Peter

 777.12 kB · 1 download

Have a look at 959 Pte James Nolan.  No WFA Card but Effects, Star Roll & MIC all say death 20-21 Dec 1914. No DC or CWGC.  I'll start a new post on him when I make some more time.

Great sleuthing Peter.  You're welcome to start the seperate thread....

A note of caution is that 2235 (2234) A Peach is in the published casualty list but he was taken as POW.

Tim

Edited 14 October , 2022 by 8055Bell

[8055Bell]

William Perry's case has now been put forward for adjudication by IFCP.  On the back of the research, case files have also been compiled for Pte 856 James Williams and Pte 959 James Nolan, both 1st Bn Manchester Regiment non com casualties at Givenchy 20-21 Dec 1914.  Williams had been posted wounded & missing, later presumed killed in action.  It seems plausible that the Nolan and Perry had also been included on the Missing List but not recorded as killed on subsequent returns that were used for CWGC records.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, 8055Bell said:

William Perry's case has now been put forward for adjudication by IFCP.  On the back of the research, case files have also been compiled for Pte 856 James Williams and Pte 959 James Nolan, both 1st Bn Manchester Regiment non com casualties at Givenchy 20-21 Dec 1914.  Williams had been posted wounded & missing, later presumed killed in action.  It seems plausible that the Nolan and Perry had also been included on the Missing List but not recorded as killed on subsequent returns that were used for CWGC records.

Good work Tim and great news that it has led to identifying two more possible missed commemorations. Fingers crossed for a successful outcome.

Cheers,
Peter

[8055Bell]

Thanks Peter,

Your tip to look for other casualties was a good one.

Tim