Were tuberculosis soldiers kept isolated ?

[Simon Cains]

Sorry if this has been covered before.  I found a man who was diagnosed with TB at end 1915 but only discharged from the army June 1917 when he was unfit to serve.  He died at home a year later.  I read that TB was known to be infectious since the 1880s, so surely he wouldn't have been allowed to mix with other men ?  What was he doing in the army for those 18 months ?  It says he refused to go to a sanatorium ( I have seen those described as like prisons where only half the patients survived ). His medical report also says he was still doing "ordinary military service", exposed to heavy snow for 6 weeks, and later two months under canvas.  ( It says 1917 but that can't be right, that is after the date he was discharged and the medical report, so maybe 1916 or 15 ?).  ( Although the treatment for TB was fresh cold air )  His service record says "granted P.P. class II a.o." after he was diagnosed, any idea what that means ?    Thanks very much.

[Matlock1418]

I'll hazard the symptoms started in 1915 but were not fully diagnosed until later - but I can't explain army procedures

Again I'll hazard Granted P[roficiency] P[ay] Class 2, A[rmy] O[rder] 368 1915 & 300 1916 [?]

Pensions - one for @ss002d6252 I think.

Interesting to note that he was recorded as Prevents 3/4 for two months [considered 3/4 incapacitated for work and thus the pension rate] and then 1/4 premanently. 

This is an admittedly strange way to go about thing as a 1/4 pension would rather encourage him, by necessity, to go out to work in the civilian population and this could have spread the disease further there too.  By 1918 TB cases were typically awarded 100% disability pension rate - presumably try and stop them going out to work and spreading the disease.

M

[PRC]

"Originated" would appear to be a bit of a contradiction if the Army believed that his condition was aggravated rather than caused by his service. Certainly the attitude that tuberculosis was endemic in the sections of socety that the peacetime Army recruited from seems to have carried on into the Great War.

It's also likely that the end of 1915 date is one applied in retrospect as an explanation for when he transitioned from someone in whom the infection was asymptomatic or even dormant. He may then have started to develop a nagging cough, was short of breath, or inexplicably started losing weight. I've read a World Health Authority report from the early 2000's in which its been estimated from small studies that in third world countries 5 to 10% of tuberculosis infections are initially misdiagnosed as heart defects and diseases by the local healthcare systems. I would suspect early 20th Century western medicine was on a similar level, if not worse.

So the question would be - when was the sample of sputum taken in which tuberculosis bacilli were found. In my limited experience of submitting a few missed commemoration cases, by 1917 men with tb seems to be shown the exit door very quickly.

Similarly I've come across other cases involving highly contagious and potentially fatal diseases at Army Camps who have been removed to "Infection huts" - some lived, some died and at least a couple of the names on local war memorials were the medical orderlies who worked with them.

Peter

Edited 12 October , 2022 by PRC
Typo

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Yes, it looks as though the army have got their dates mixed up.

Army Form B103  (entry undated) says he was discharged on 8/6/1917, but Pension card (filled in 11/12/17) says he was 'under canvas' until 11/7/17.
I would go with the Army Form B103, as the date - 8/6/17 is entered twice, once on the right hand side for calculating length of service.

The pension card was filled in 6 months after the event.

[Matlock1418]

A disability claim pension card records 22/- pw from 9.6.17 to 11.12.17 [approx in line with his granted 75% rate - full rate was 27/6 according to the 1917 Royal Warrant]

Also is marked File Destroyed 10/1/26 [so a bit of a puzzle - potentially the Chelsea file as the MoP seems likely to be the 'unburnt' file/SR in the OP ??]

Other cards after his death show his mother as Mrs Marion JOHNSON and STYLES of 71 Hanover Terrace, Brighton, and 32 or 325 Mary's St, High Wycombe, got a pension of 3/6 pw PSP from 9.8.18 to 10.8.20 [Rather looks like at some stage she had remarried (potentially in 1916 in Brighton to William STYLES - Who appears to have died in 1917 in Wycombe) and could potentially have lost a pension but I'm afraid I can't fully explain the PSP annotation]

M

[tullybrone]

The “P P” query of the OP is in relation to his award of Proficiency Pay on the 2nd anniversary of his enlistment as recorded on the B103. 

Steve

[Moonraker]

Winsley Sanatorium, near Bradford-on-Avon, had been established before the war to look after tuberculosis patients. In 1916 it was caring for TB sufferers discharged from naval and military hospitals, who were often in too advanced a condition for treatment.

 

[Simon Cains]

8 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

A disability claim pension card records 22/- pw from 9.6.17 to 11.12.17 [approx in line with his granted 75% rate - full rate was 27/6 according to the 1917 Royal Warrant]

Also is marked File Destroyed 10/1/26 [so a bit of a puzzle - potentially the Chelsea file as the MoP seems likely to be the 'unburnt' file/SR in the OP ??]

Other cards after his death show his mother as Mrs Marion JOHNSON and STYLES of 71 Hanover Terrace, Brighton, and 32 or 325 Mary's St, High Wycombe, got a pension of 3/6 pw PSP from 9.8.18 to 10.8.20 [Rather looks like at some stage she had remarried (potentially in 1916 in Brighton to William STYLES - Who appears to have died in 1917 in Wycombe) and could potentially have lost a pension but I'm afraid I can't fully explain the PSP annotation]

M

Hi thank you, I didn't manage to find the pension cards, would you be able to post them here ?   Yes his mother Marion married William Johnson in 1916.  Her address was given as the Dashwood Arms pub in Bucks (in my village), in her sons army records, although the sons seemed to be still living in Brighton until called up. I have the family in the earlier censuses and have just ordered some bmd certificates to check details.   But I was mostly interested in his time in the army .

[Matlock1418]

43 minutes ago, Simon Cains said:

I didn't manage to find the pension cards, would you be able to post them here ? 

Unfortunately under the rules of the Forum you shouldn't really ask and I certainly can't now post all, but I think that I can post one - so I'll post the first one for his disability claim as that is most 'related' to his army time and it does give you a bit more about his service with 98 Tr. Reserve Bn, H. Coy.

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

Other cards available at WFA/Fold3 - but I think I've transcribed the most salient points above.

43 minutes ago, Simon Cains said:

Yes his mother Marion married William Johnson in 1916.

I think that probably should be: Marion JOHNSON married William STYLES in 1916

M

Edited 12 October , 2022 by Matlock1418

[Simon Cains]

15 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Unfortunately under the rules of the Forum you shouldn't really ask and I certainly can't now post all, but I think that I can post one - so I'll post the first one for his disability claim as that is most 'related' to his army time and it does give you a bit more about his service with 98 Tr. Reserve Bn, H. Coy.

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

Other cards available at WFA/Fold3 - but I think I've transcribed the most salient points above.

I think that probably should be: Marion JOHNSON married William STYLES in 1916

M

OK thanks.  I did find that one but I wasn't sure what the details meant.  I am a member of the Western Front Assoc so I should be able to look up the other cards, just need a pointer.  I have just now found the one for his mother getting his pension, but it is indexed under Albert Styles, I would not have thought of looking there.   ( I hadn't realised a mother could claim a pension for her lost son, that seems pretty generous, I guess she has lost his help in her old age ).  Are there more cards ?  What name did you find them indexed under ?   Thanks very much

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, Simon Cains said:

I did find that one but I wasn't sure what the details meant.  I am a member of the Western Front Assoc so I should be able to look up the other cards, just need a pointer.  I have just now found the one for his mother getting his pension, but it is indexed under Albert Styles, I would not have thought of looking there.   ( I hadn't realised a mother could claim a pension for her lost son, that seems pretty generous, I guess she has lost his help in her old age ).  Are there more cards ?  What name did you find them indexed under ?

I searched under JOHNSON 36847 [commonly it helps to drop any pre-fix = such as TR10 in this chap's case - brings more results]

The mother's card under 'Albert Edward STYLES' is was actually badly mis-transcribed as Albert Ahsand STYLES and should really have read Albert Edward JOHNSON - it does now! And you can find it as such.

Searching under a relative's name does sometime bring results.  As does an address [village or town] for dependant(s) or a disability case - just depends as to whether it has been added as a search tag [most dependants have addresses, due to a big effort by WFA volunteers a year or so ago, but disability cases are still largely depend on the Fold3 transcribers - who often didn't add them or didn't have an accurate idea of geography or spelling - shame really]

As someone who has searched for and looked at many, many thousands of cards I sometimes find it quite easy to forget for others how unclear searching can be and how obscure the result(s) that may revealed - many of the annotations are pensions admin notes and often seem to add little but spending time looking at the cards and the WFA guidance you can expand your knowledge and findings [I'm still learning!] - most cards seem to have quite a few to help their filing and to briefly track what was going on - as in this case most pension file have been deliberately destroyed so we commonly can't see much - you were lucky to have found the 'unburnt' MoP file mentioned in the OP - so in fact these cards have been a godsend in/for unlocking so many cases.

M

Edited 12 October , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[PRC]

53 minutes ago, Simon Cains said:

( I hadn't realised a mother could claim a pension for her lost son, that seems pretty generous, I guess she has lost his help in her old age )

The Dependants Pension arose because there was a financial dependancy. The clearest route to a successful claim would have been if the soldier concerned was having a deduction from his pay sent to his mother or father or anyone else for that matter. That would demonstrate there was an immediate documented financial dependancy.

Sadly what his mother might need in her old age wasn't a consideration.

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

13 hours ago, PRC said:

The Dependants Pension arose because there was a financial dependancy.

Yes

13 hours ago, PRC said:

Sadly what his mother might need in her old age wasn't a consideration.

Perhaps @ss002d6252 might be able to elaborate more on this and the unfamiliar to me PSP annotation mentioned above.

My feeling is that Article 21 was a more flexible beast than many other Articles in the Royal Warrant(s) in and from 1918 and that age, infirmity and pecuniary need could play a role(s) and affect the quantum.

The award for dependants would be, from Hogge & Garwood, 1918:

21.1a ... a pension of not less than 3s 6d and not exceeding 15s per week for a parent or parents if dependant on the soldier, or

21.1b ... an award within similar limits if at any time either or both parents is or are incapable of self support from age or infirmity and in pecuniary need

Albert Edward JOHNSON died 10.6.18 and his mother claimed 20.7.18 - So it would seem at 3/6 pw PSP, 9.8.18 to 10.8.20 she got the minimum [5/- pw being a very common award seen on many other dependant mothers' cards]

M

Edit: 

1918 RW [from 1 May 1918]

Art. 21. – (1) The parent (or parents) of a soldier who has died in the circumstances set forth in Article 11 of this Our Warrant may be granted a pension under the following conditions:-

Art. 11. – The widow of a soldier who (a) is killed while in the performance of military duty during the present war, or (b) dies as a result of wounds or injuries received in the performance of such duty within seven years of receiving such wounds or injuries, or (c) dies of disease certified as contracted or commencing while on active service during the present war, or as having been aggravated by such active service, within seven years of his removal from duty on account of such disease, may, provided the soldier’s death has not been caused by his serious negligence or misconduct, be granted a widow’s pension.

Edited 13 October , 2022 by Matlock1418
Edit

[PRC]

7 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Perhaps @ss002d6252 might be able to elaborate more on this and the unfamiliar to me PSP annotation mentioned above.

M - quite agree that age was a factor if a pension was in payment, but my point was that she couldn't wait until later on in life to claim a pension based on the loss of any support a still alive son might at that time have been able to give her financially, as well as socially through accomodation and caring for her. Nor was it a pension that could be claimed with a view to it only being paid out later in life.

I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but I thought the boxes relating to financial dependancy had to be ticked before any of the other considerations came into play.
Effectively it's compensation for the loss on an income stream, not for the loss of a son.

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

25 minutes ago, PRC said:

quite agree that age was a factor if a pension was in payment,

I think possibly the 'perhaps' has been misinterpreted as a prior to my suggestion as to who might help us out ???  Anyway ...

I believe age could play from the very start, as could infirmity, if in pecuniary need then and perhaps later too [certainly in some cases an advanced age and/or level of infirmity/impairment is clearly indicated, not here] - but as we have agreed dependancey was required first.

25 minutes ago, PRC said:

my point was that she couldn't wait until later on in life to claim a pension based on the loss of any support a still alive son might at that time have been able to give her financially, as well as socially through accomodation and caring for her. Nor was it a pension that could be claimed with a view to it only being paid out later in life.

I think that is probably correct - certainly evidence of immediately past dependancy was required and I don't know of a deferral option - but Craig will likely see us right.

25 minutes ago, PRC said:

I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but I thought the boxes relating to financial dependancy had to be ticked before any of the other considerations came into play.
Effectively it's compensation for the loss on an income stream, not for the loss of a son.

Yes and yes - dependency required and sadly the loss of a son does rather seem a bit of an aside

But we significantly digress, though seemingly with permission, from the OP = Just wish I also knew more about how the Army handled TB cases whilst they were still on their books.

M

Edited 12 October , 2022 by Matlock1418

[Simon Cains]

10 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

I searched under JOHNSON 36847 [commonly it helps to drop any pre-fix = such as TR10 in this chap's case - brings more results]

The mother's card under 'Albert Edward STYLES' is was actually badly mis-transcribed as Albert Ahsand STYLES and should really have read Albert Edward JOHNSON - it does now! And you can find it as such.

Searching under a relative's name does sometime bring results.  As does an address [village or town] for dependant(s) or a disability case - just depends as to whether it has been added as a search tag [most dependants have addresses, due to a big effort by WFA volunteers a year or so ago, but disability cases are still largely depend on the Fold3 transcribers - who often didn't add them or didn't have an accurate idea of geography or spelling - shame really]

As someone who has searched for and looked at many, many thousands of cards I sometimes find it quite easy to forget for others how unclear searching can be and how obscure the result(s) that may revealed - many of the annotations are pensions admin notes and often seem to add little but spending time looking at the cards and the WFA guidance you can expand your knowledge and findings [I'm still learning!] - most cards seem to have quite a few to help their filing and to briefly track what was going on - as in this case most pension file have been deliberately destroyed so we commonly can't see much - you were lucky to have found the 'unburnt' MoP file mentioned in the OP - so in fact these cards have been a godsend in/for unlocking so many cases.

M

Sorry yes of course I was forgetting that the number is a much better way to search once you have it.  I worked on that WFA project for quite a while, flagging up any addresses and "aliases" , different names.  That certainly showed me some surprises, eg the number of men marked "insane" or asylum, very sad.    Thanks

[ss002d6252]

16 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Perhaps @ss002d6252 might be able to elaborate more on this and the unfamiliar to me PSP annotation mentioned above.

Parents Special Pension,

Here's a blank card I found and kept hold of.



Craig

[ss002d6252]

The references to PSP start appearing around Sep 1917 - which ties in with the date on the card stock - and is likely either from the RW 1917 or the June 1917 Statutory Committee Regs on hardship payments. There are a few newspaper articles that may confirm, but I don't have access at the moment.

Craig

[Matlock1418]

17 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Parents Special Pension,

Here's a blank card I found and kept hold of.

 

5 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The references to PSP start appearing around Sep 1917 - which ties in with the date on the card stock - and is likely either from the RW 1917 or the June 1917 Statutory Committee Regs on hardship payments. There are a few newspaper articles that may confirm, but I don't have access at the moment.

Thanks Craig.  Again that rather makes sense.  Again it would seem a case for parents in straitened-means/in pecuniary need situations - Now to try find more details.

= Do you think this would be in on top of or in lieu of Article 21 pensions?

I might hazard that the PSP card above rather reads as though there might have been time-limited applications of PSP - and this would seem quite likely confirmed by Marion JOHNSON/STYLES pension card entry [for just 2 years in her  case]  

= Might it have been continued/renewed?

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

= Can you offer any more on PSP?  Always in hope.

M

[ss002d6252]

On 13/10/2022 at 16:38, Matlock1418 said:

 

Thanks Craig.  Again that rather makes sense.  Again it would seem a case for parents in straitened-means/in pecuniary need situations - Now to try find more details.

= Do you think this would be in on top of or in lieu of Article 21 pensions?

I might hazard that the PSP card above rather reads as though there might have been time-limited applications of PSP - and this would seem quite likely confirmed by Marion JOHNSON/STYLES pension card entry [for just 2 years in her  case]  

= Might it have been continued/renewed?

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

= Can you offer any more on PSP?  Always in hope.

M

Parents Special Pension

The initial Article 21 of the 1917 RW had limited support for parents who became incapable of self-support due to age or infirmity. The September 1917 change to this RW widened the scope of the Article 21 pension and removed the need for dependence. The minimum award was to be 3s 6d per week. This change was termed the 'Parents Special Pension'.

Although it was later put into legislation (Article 21(1)(b) 1918 RW), it seems it was still habitually referred to as the 'Parents Special Pension'.

Craig

[Matlock1418]

27 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Parents Special Pension

The initial Article 21 of the 1917 RW had limited support for parents who became incapable of self-support due to age or infirmity. The September 1917 change to this RW widened the scope of the Article 21 pension and removed the need for dependence. The minimum award was to be 3s 6d per week. This change was termed the 'Parents Special Pension'.

Although it was later put into legislation (Article 21(1)(b) 1918 RW), it seems it was still habitually referred to as the 'Parents Special Pension'.

Craig, Thanks once again

M