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Bayonets found in loft. Are they German???


potty5
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Hi all. Been with a friend emptying his father's house and came across these bayonets in the loft. They appear to say MOORSEELE OCTOBER 1918 on both. They belonged to his grandfather who fought in the Royal Garrison Artillery as a Gunner during the Great War. Can anybody identify them (probably German), and what are they valued at please (approx) as he doesn't want them in his house. Thanks for reading, Mark.

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They are German.  Moorseele is about 20-ish miles east of Ypres. The top word is BOCHE (derisive term for Germans).  Nice "souvenirs"

Edited by TullochArd
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Thank you for the reply TullochArd. Any idea of the value to a collector please?? Mark

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I think they are S84/98 bayonets for the Kar 98a carbine version of the standard WW1 German Gew 98 rifle which had a nominal 10" blade.

 

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Extremely interesting! I believe they are S84/98, originally with sawback but the sawbacks were removed (by the German army).

Moorsele is just the village nextdoors from me. It was captured by the British army mid October 1918.

Extremely nice bayonets! I can't say anything about the value though.

 

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Really nice pieces with similar date and area designation what is little strange is the difference in scabbard lenght, on blade should be normally the maker stamp, You should look at spine of blade near crossguard for date as mentioned both are sawback removed, october 1918 speaks for already end of heavy fights.  Possible someone laquered all the finish with silver coat? Right bayonet is wrongly installed into scabbard and the other scabbard has lost his mouth screw.

Edited by AndyBsk
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  • 2 weeks later...

Yes indeed sawback-removed versions - rarer than actual sawbacks in my experience!

Julian

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Trajan,

Any comments on the apparent discrepancy in sizes of the two scabbards?

Also, who would have used the Kar 98a carbine—artillery & cavalry?

Regards,

JMB

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The Kar98a was originally for cavalry and maschine gunners I believe but then became popular among the stormtroopers especially - Steve will know the answer to that!

The difference in the scabbard length is a bit odd, and I'd like to have the measurements for both. I need to check my books and actual examples (in my office right now). But I suspect the one scabbard is from another 'Mauser' type ?export bayonet - it's not an Ersatz model.

Trajan

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An interesting order I happened to find about the official removal of the sawback for this type of bayonets. I think @trajan may find this very interesting (as well as others).

 

atb7_1918_117.jpg

Edited by AOK4
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2 hours ago, AOK4 said:

An interesting order I happened to find about the official removal of the sawback for this type of bayonets. I think @trajan may find this very interesting (as well as others).

THANK YOU! I have only ever seen a transcript of this, so it is good to see the actual thing and confirm the accuracy of the transcript!

Julian

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 15/10/2022 at 17:52, trajan said:

The Kar98a was originally for cavalry and maschine gunners I believe but then became popular among the stormtroopers especially - Steve will know the answer to that!

The difference in the scabbard length is a bit odd, and I'd like to have the measurements for both. I need to check my books and actual examples (in my office right now). But I suspect the one scabbard is from another 'Mauser' type ?export bayonet - it's not an Ersatz model.

Trajan

Repeat post as I would like to have those dimensions Potty5!

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4 hours ago, Mick M said:

...Here is one for sale but still has the sawback - £295 for accuracy though you could try sending pictures to The Bayonet Man...

Ridiculous price, but I guess the fascination with the sawback... There are more preseved sawbacks around now than were ever in action! Some 6% of all bayonets were given a sawback, but my experience - from unit-marked ones - is that more than 6% of each typr is still around.

I have written an article on these sawbacks for any who are interested - Julian Bennett (2020): ‘Un engin de torture, une baïonnette à crochets; une arme blanche déshonorée’: an historical-archaeological evaluation of the Sawback bayonets of the Deutsches Heer, Journal of Conflict Archaeology, DOI: 10.1080/15740773.2019.1730074: https://doi.org/10.1080/15740773.2019.1730074 

Julian

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35 minutes ago, trajan said:

Ridiculous price, but I guess the fascination with the sawback... There are more preseved sawbacks around now than were ever in action! Some 6% of all bayonets were given a sawback, but my experience - from unit-marked ones - is that more than 6% of each typr is still around.

I have written an article on these sawbacks for any who are interested - Julian Bennett (2020): ‘Un engin de torture, une baïonnette à crochets; une arme blanche déshonorée’: an historical-archaeological evaluation of the Sawback bayonets of the Deutsches Heer, Journal of Conflict Archaeology, DOI: 10.1080/15740773.2019.1730074: https://doi.org/10.1080/15740773.2019.1730074 

Julian

Thanks I'll enjoy that

 

Mick.

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  • 1 month later...
On 29/10/2022 at 17:32, Mick M said:

Thanks I'll enjoy that...

Hope you got it? If not I'll send you a copy!

Julian

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