Missing/ unknown British soldier

[Bob Davies]

Hello all, I am looking for an answer please. If for example British soldier X was killed and his body was never found, I presume that he would be remembered on a memorial close to the place that he fell. Now, in CWGC cemeteries  nearby, there may be graves of unknown British soldiers, could soldier X be in one of these graves? Regards, Bob.

[Keith_history_buff]

Hello Bob,

I have a family member who was killed in action in September 1914. There are about a dozen men of his unit who died, were not positively identified, and these graves have tombstones that refer to the fact that the grave contains the remains of an unidentified soldier. Any one of those graves could well contain my family member.

My family member's name is inscribed on the Le Touret memorial, along with others that died at that time.

When I first went to the graveyards on the Western Front, I was taken aback at how many graves were for unidentified soldiers. Using the CWGC search, one has the impression things are neat and orderly. This is not how men die in battle.

[Buffnut453]

Not to derail the thread, but I've often wondered about the ratio comparing the number of names of the missing on memorials to the number of unidentified soldiers in CWGC cemeteries.  I presume someone (someones?) have looked at this?  Obviously, the numbers will be ever-changing as bodies are discovered and identities tied to individual burials (the latter thanks, in large part, to the efforts of volunteers on GWF).

Do any such statistics exist?

[PRC]

30 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Now, in CWGC cemeteries  nearby, there may be graves of unknown British soldiers, could soldier X be in one of these graves?

Bob,

Short answer is yes. And some of the "known" British soldiers are actually other people incorrectly identified. There are some very dedicated individuals on this forum and elsewhere who put in the hard yards to try and convince the CWGC of the identities of some of those "Unknowns" \ "Mis-identified". The CWGC website used to have a spreadsheet with over 400 cases on the go, but they haven't updated it for yonks. If you check out the sub-forum "Recovering the fallen" https://www.greatwarforum.org/forum/176-recovering-the-fallen/ you'll see every now and than a success story is announced - a previously unknown individual is to get a named headstone in a re-dedication ceremony.

I have always wondered what the discrepancy is between the number of "Unknown British Soldiers" headstones and the names on CWGC War Memorial on a Theatre by Theatre basis, stripping out those memorials dedicated to individuals who died at sea. There will be a gap undoubtedly - but how big a gap?

Cheers,
Peter

Edit - looks like @Buffnut453 may have had a similar thought! (cross-posted

Edited 18 September , 2022 by PRC

[Buffnut453]

5 minutes ago, PRC said:

I have always wondered what the discrepancy is between the number of "Unknown British Soldiers" headstones and the names on CWGC War Memorial on a Theatre by Theatre basis, stripping out those memorials dedicated to individuals who died at sea. There will be a gap undoubtedly - but how big a gap?

Peter, 

Go see a shrink...ASAP.  Seems like you're perilously close to thinking like me (see my post above yours), and that's a worrying trend.  Pull out before you descend to my level of madness!!!! 

Cheers,

Mark

Edited 18 September , 2022 by Buffnut453

[PRC]

1 minute ago, Buffnut453 said:

Go see a shrink...ASAP.  Seems like you're perilously close to thinking like me (see my post above yours), and that's a worrying trend.  Pull out before you descend to my level of madness!!!!

See my edit

And apologies for the typo's - it's difficult to see the keys when you're typing with your nose. It would be so much easier if they would just let me out of this strait-jacket!

Cheers,
Peter

[Buffnut453]

I'm with you Peter.  The sky's a loverly shade of purple on my planet!

[Bob Davies]

34 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I have a family member who was killed in action in September 1914. There are about a dozen men of his unit who died, were not positively identified, and these graves have tombstones that refer to the fact that the grave contains the remains of an unidentified soldier. Any one of those graves could well contain my family member.

My family member's name is inscribed on the Le Touret memorial, along with others that died at that time.

When I first went to the graveyards on the Western Front, I was taken aback at how many graves were for unidentified soldiers. Using the CWGC search, one has the impression things are neat and orderly. This is not how men die in battle.

Thank you Keith_history_buff. Yes I understand what you say.

 

24 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

Not to derail the thread, but I've often wondered about the ratio comparing the number of names of the missing on memorials to the number of unidentified soldiers in CWGC cemeteries.  I presume someone (someones?) have looked at this?  Obviously, the numbers will be ever-changing as bodies are discovered and identities tied to individual burials (the latter thanks, in large part, to the efforts of volunteers on GWF).

Do any such statistics exist?

These were my thoughts too, or very similar. I did not want to complicate things too much. Good to know there are others who think like I do

 

28 minutes ago, PRC said:

Short answer is yes. And some of the "known" British soldiers are actually other people incorrectly identified. There are some very dedicated individuals on this forum and elsewhere who put in the hard yards to try and convince the CWGC of the identities of some of those "Unknowns" \ "Mis-identified". The CWGC website used to have a spreadsheet with over 400 cases on the go, but they haven't updated it for yonks. If you check out the sub-forum "Recovering the fallen" https://www.greatwarforum.org/forum/176-recovering-the-fallen/ you'll see every now and than a success story is announced - a previously unknown individual is to get a named headstone in a re-dedication ceremony.

I have always wondered what the discrepancy is between the number of "Unknown British Soldiers" headstones and the names on CWGC War Memorial on a Theatre by Theatre basis, stripping out those memorials dedicated to individuals who died at sea. There will be a gap undoubtedly - but how big a gap?

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter, good on those who put in the effort to do the work. I am pleased to know others have the same ideas as myself. Many thanks to all you have answered my question. Regards, Bob.

[Buffnut453]

Well that's three of us, then.  Doesn't that count as a mutiny?

[Bob Davies]

4 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

Well that's three of us, then.  Doesn't that count as a mutiny?

Only if we hold the rum supply! 

[PRC]

11 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

Well that's three of us, then. 

The unholy trinity! So if Bob's got the rum, you're on the lash, s*d this for a game of soldiers but I guess that means I've drawn the short straw......again

Peter

[Bob Davies]

29 minutes ago, PRC said:

The unholy trinity! So if Bob's got the rum, you're on the lash, s*d this for a game of soldiers but I guess that means I've drawn the short straw......again

Peter

The rum is for all Peter, no bodies in the barrel but yes very unholy!

[LDT006]

8 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

Not to derail the thread, but I've often wondered about the ratio comparing the number of names of the missing on memorials to the number of unidentified soldiers in CWGC cemeteries.  I presume someone (someones?) have looked at this? 

Similar questions have been posted on this forum before, this is one with some details:

Another one:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/139458-how-many-unknown/

Luc.

[Buffnut453]

Thanks @LDT006 (a) for getting us back on track, and (b) for the info you provided. 

Looks like there are still more than 100K men out there who are still missing.  Given the effects of artillery fire during the war, and land development/ravages of time since, I'm sure many will never be found.  However, it's equally clear each and every year that some are still out there.  It's a sobering thought.

[Bob Davies]

6 hours ago, LDT006 said:

Similar questions have been posted on this forum before, this is one with some details:

Thank you Luc, these two threads you have indicated, answer my question more fully. That is a great help and I appreciate  that you have taken the time to find and re post them here. Cheers, Bob

[PRC]

I started pulling together a breakdown of the numbers on the War Memorials in France & Flanders last night while we were exchanging posts in this thread. To my mind only those named on those memorials could still potentially be lying in the fields, ditches and woods of that area or under the headstone of an unknown serviceman.

However I wanted to sanity check it this morning before posting - by which time Luc had posted those links which at first glance made it all redundant.

But it's been nagging at me all day. Where did the figure 314,716 come from? I certainly didn't get to that, and unless I've missed a major memorial or my methodology is wrong, I'm 35,000 short. Yes things could be slightly out of sync by names coming off since that number was posted in 2017, but not by over 10% given the glacial speed the CWGC works at.

I took the current, as in yesterdays, totals from the relevant CWGC memorial webpage. I then used Geoff's Search engine to weed out the numbers for each Dominion, assuming the balance were the forces of the UK. Breakdown looks like this.

More than happy for someone to point out the flaw in my logic. Otherwise the numbers on memorials may actually be a lot closer to the number of headstones for unknown soldiers.

Cheers,
Peter

 

 

[ss002d6252]

16 minutes ago, PRC said:

Where did the figure 314,716 come from?

Is it definitely only for the Western Front (and is it total, or just British forces) ?

Craig

[dickaren]

58 minutes ago, PRC said:

I started pulling together a breakdown of the numbers on the War Memorials in France & Flanders last night while we were exchanging posts in this thread. To my mind only those named on those memorials could still potentially be lying in the fields, ditches and woods of that area or under the headstone of an unknown serviceman.

However I wanted to sanity check it this morning before posting - by which time Luc had posted those links which at first glance made it all redundant.

But it's been nagging at me all day. Where did the figure 314,716 come from? I certainly didn't get to that, and unless I've missed a major memorial or my methodology is wrong, I'm 35,000 short. Yes things could be slightly out of sync by names coming off since that number was posted in 2017, but not by over 10% given the glacial speed the CWGC works at.

I took the current, as in yesterdays, totals from the relevant CWGC memorial webpage. I then used Geoff's Search engine to weed out the numbers for each Dominion, assuming the balance were the forces of the UK. Breakdown looks like this.

More than happy for someone to point out the flaw in my logic. Otherwise the numbers on memorials may actually be a lot closer to the number of headstones for unknown soldiers.

Cheers,
Peter

 

 

Le Touret has 13,479 

[PRC]

42 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Is it definitely only for the Western Front (and is it total, or just British forces) ?

Good question. When I read those threads this morning I came away with the impression that 314,716 in the first thread linked to was Western Front only and was Britain and her Dominions, backed up by an official figure of 10,846 Officers and 315,849 OR's officially missing at the end of the war in the France Theatre of war - a total of 326, 695, for which evidence is provided in the second thread.  Except in the subsequent clarification underneath the table showing an untotalled break-down by Theatre which those figures are drawn from, it goes on to effectively state the fate of c250k of them is known. It's likely the lion share of the 250k relates to France & Flanders of which some would be PoW's.. Nor is it made clear whether those numbers in the second thread are British Army only, or Britain and her Dominions.

Re-reading them it seems like a number of responses in both threads are at cross-purposes, with numbers quoted without sources and potentially out of context. At this point I'm seeing very little in them that could regarded as reliable. None of the information in them is granular enough to be of use for theatre specific guidance.

There will certainly be merit for some researchers in looking at the global numbers to see the big picture, but I would suggest at the practical level for identifying individuals under a nameless headstone it's going to be theatre specific information that will be needed.

Cheers,
Peter

[Michelle Young]

Ploegsteert, (11,302) Nieuport (552) and Le Touret (13,479)  are missing from your list. 

[ss002d6252]

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

Good question. When I read those threads this morning I came away with the impression that 314,716 in the first thread linked to was Western Front only and was Britain and her Dominions, backed up by an official figure of 10,846 Officers and 315,849 OR's officially missing at the end of the war in the France Theatre of war - a total of 326, 695, for which evidence is provided in the second thread.  Except in the subsequent clarification underneath the table showing an untotalled break-down by Theatre which those figures are drawn from, it goes on to effectively state the fate of c250k of them is known. It's likely the lion share of the 250k relates to France & Flanders of which some would be PoW's.. Nor is it made clear whether those numbers in the second thread are British Army only, or Britain and her Dominions.

Re-reading them it seems like a number of responses in both threads are at cross-purposes, with numbers quoted without sources and potentially out of context. At this point I'm seeing very little in them that could regarded as reliable. None of the information in them is granular enough to be of use for theatre specific guidance.

There will certainly be merit for some researchers in looking at the global numbers to see the big picture, but I would suggest at the practical level for identifying individuals under a nameless headstone it's going to be theatre specific information that will be needed.

Cheers,
Peter

It's actually a very close figure to that shown in the 1935 CWGC Annual Report (I deliberately chose one a good few years after the war - but it seems to use figures to June 31). Unidentified graves + those on memorials to the missing.


https://archive.cwgc.org/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=CWGC%2f2%2f1%2fADD+6.2.17

Craig

[PRC]

Thank you @dickaren and @Michelle Young, more than happy to own up to missing those. Any additions will be welcome as getting to the 314k area would remove that from the discussion.

So for now still a work in progress, but here's version 2 of the table.

Cheers,
Peter

[LDT006]

There are indeed a lot of numbers in those topics without the fine details.
But the document from ss002d6252 has the details and shows 315.501 soldiers without a known grave for France and Belgium.

@PRCSorry to say but there are still some missing 

Below is a list that I made from a previous exercise with all memorials in France and Belgium, total is 314.434 which is very close.
Please correct me if my maths are wrong or if some memorials shouldn't be on the list....

THIEPVAL MEMORIAL	72245
YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL	54399
TYNE COT MEMORIAL	34949
ARRAS MEMORIAL	34765
LOOS MEMORIAL	20616
POZIERES MEMORIAL	14693
LE TOURET MEMORIAL	13406
PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL	11366
VIMY MEMORIAL	11161
VILLERS-BRETONNEUX MEMORIAL	10733
VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL	9839
CAMBRAI MEMORIAL, LOUVERVAL	7057
NEUVE-CHAPELLE MEMORIAL	4653
SOISSONS MEMORIAL	3878
LA FERTE-SOUS-JOUARRE MEMORIAL	3743
V.C. CORNER AUSTRALIAN CEMETERY AND MEMORIAL, FROMELLES	1589
CATERPILLAR VALLEY (NEW ZEALAND) MEMORIAL	1205
ARRAS FLYING SERVICES MEMORIAL	989
MESSINES RIDGE (N.Z.) MEMORIAL	828
BEAUMONT-HAMEL (NEWFOUNDLAND) MEMORIAL	809
NIEUPORT MEMORIAL	549
GREVILLERS (NEW ZEALAND) MEMORIAL	446
BUTTES NEW BRITISH CEMETERY (N.Z.) MEMORIAL, POLYGON WOOD	378
CITE BONJEAN (NEW ZEALAND) MEMORIAL	47
NOYELLES-SUR-MER CHINESE MEMORIAL	40
FRANCE (1914-1918) MEMORIAL	37
MARFAUX (NEW ZEALAND) MEMORIAL	10
ZEEBRUGGE MEMORIAL	4

[Bob Davies]

Thank you all for your input, very interesting Your minds are thinking faster than mine on the way it has gone so far To put another one into the pot, I just found a Soldiers name as being dead but crossed out with the word 'Alive' written in. So that will confuse the tally some what and as you said Peter.

On 18/09/2022 at 22:16, PRC said:

And some of the "known" British soldiers are actually other people incorrectly identified. There are some very dedicated individuals on this forum and elsewhere who put in the hard yards to try and convince the CWGC of the identities of some of those "Unknowns" \ "Mis-identified". The CWGC website used to have a spreadsheet with over 400 cases on the go, but they haven't updated it for yonks

From what I am reading on the lists at CWGC for Guillemont, a lot of the soldiers buried there were already buried before, probably where they fell and then re buried in the official cemetery. From what I can make out, most had a cross maker at their first burial (where they fell or were  found) either saying who they were by name, or just their regiment or 'Unknown British Soldier'.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, LDT006 said:

@PRCSorry to say but there are still some missing 

It's still a work in progress so I'm didn't think I'd got them all!

1 hour ago, LDT006 said:

or if some memorials shouldn't be on the list....

Happy to be corrected but I don't think NOYELLES-SUR-MER CHINESE MEMORIAL would count as part of the British Empire forces. Most likely that and any graves relating to the Chinese Labour Company's are nowadays maintained by the CWGC on behalf of the Chinese Government.

I tried both CWGC and Geoff's search engine but I couldn't find a FRANCE (1914-1918) MEMORIAL

What was odd is that using the current figures from the CWGC I almost consistantly have greater numbers than you. I actually went back and checked the memorials with the biggest discrepancies in case I'd made a mistake when pulling together the totals, but didn't find any. If your numbers were gathered some time ago, I would have thought mine should be less, not more.

The one exception is the V.C. Corner Australian Cemetery And Memorial, Fromelles. Because of the excavation of the mass graves at Fromelles and the subsequent use of dna and other forensic techniques, the total on the memorial has reduced by 410.

So version 3 has the other additional memorials on your list, plus your numbers for each and the difference between your value and mine. Negative values means my total for the memorial is higher than yours.

So yes I now have over 500 more than the number on the other thread from 2017, (314,176), but fortunately less than the equivalent total for France and Belgium in the 1935 CWGC Annual Report, (315,501).

Cheers,
Peter