Help with war diary transcription needed

[David_Blanchard]

Help with War Diary transcription, please.

‘The return journey was very slow owing to  the congested state of the road and fleeing civilians ? ? , soldiers going ? ? of all services, despatch riders ? ? cycle ? ?? mass of moving humanity.’

 

 

Edited 10 September , 2022 by David_Blanchard

[AOK4]

20 minutes ago, David_Blanchard said:

‘The return journey was very slow owing to the the congested state of the road and fleeing civilians on waggons ? foot, soldiers going ?, waggons of all services, despatch riders on horse & on motor cycle ? ? intricate mass of moving humanity.’

 

Edited 10 September , 2022 by AOK4

[David_Blanchard]

Excellent, thanks for your help.

 

David

[Bob Davies]

5 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

Help with War Diary transcription, please.

The return journey was very slow owing to the congested state of the road & fleeing civilians on waggons & on foot, Soldiers going & coming, waggons of all services. Dispatch riders on horse & on motor cycle & _ _ _ _   a shameful & intricate mass of moving humanity.   Best I can do for you David, it may jog your or someones mind into revealing the unknown word or doubtful words, regards, Bob.

[David_Blanchard]

Hi Bob,

many thanks. The missing words look like numbers but haven’t a clue

 

David 

[charlie962]

'..motor cycle ?? a strange and intricate mass of moving humanity'

I don't think the ?? is a number but an abbreviated word. Perhaps 'etcetera'

Charlie

Edited 10 September , 2022 by charlie962

[AOK4]

24 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I don't think the ?? is a number but an abbreviated word. Perhaps 'etcetera'

Charlie

I agree, I was thinking this as well.

[Bob Davies]

10 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

I agree, I was thinking this as well.

It could well be?  Now it looks like;    etc  . My other though was 'side car' or an abbreviation of that?

[PRC]

Best guess and other than punctuation nearly the same as @Bob Davies

"The return journey was very slow owing to the congested state of the road ~ fleeing civilians on waggons + on foot, soldiers going + coming, waggons of all services, despatch riders on horse + on motor cycle +  ?? a strange + intricate mass of moving humanity."

The abbreviation before the last bit has me foxed - "e.g." would make a sort of sense, but I don't think that is what it says.

Cheers,
Peter

[David_Blanchard]

Thanks again, it could well be etc.

David 

[charlie2]

I doubt he would have written „& etc“ to me it looks like „& P/C“ - Pedal Cycle.

Charlie

[Bob Davies]

5 hours ago, charlie962 said:

a strange

Yes Charlie you have it, definitely strange, the 't' is crossed at the end of the word as speed took over. The mystery 3 letters before it I will bet my rum ration on 's/c' an abbreviation of side car. You answered as I was typing @charlie2 yes we both see   /c, I think s, you think p

Edited 10 September , 2022 by Bob Davies

[charlie2]

7 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

I think s,

Before anyone starts to take the P I retract my idea and agree with you, the S shape is very similar to the S in Soldiers.

[Bob Davies]

5 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

Before anyone starts to take the P I retract my idea and agree with you, the S shape is very similar to the S in Soldiers.

Thank you Charlie, I have just returned from the pub, so fresh eyes on it and with a bit of picassa picture changing the  / came to view then the  c and then the s, like you, looking at other letters in the writing to find a similarity. A great team effort, thank you all.

[David_Blanchard]

Not sure this improved image helps, which I was sent by a friend. But thanks for all the help.

 

David 

Edited 11 September , 2022 by David_Blanchard

[PRC]

So after motor cycle we have the authors symbol for "and" followed by what appears to be two letters. My first thought was whether they were upper case "B"\"S" or lower case "e" \ "n" \ "k" and tried looking for comparable letter formation elsehere in the text. Then the penny dropped.

Could it be a combination of the two, split by a slash - "B/c" for Bicycle. In the context of the passage it would make sense. "despatch riders on horse + on motor cycle + B/c".

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 11 September , 2022 by PRC
Typo

[johntaylor]

This could be correct, but the symbols seem to be repeated and I would put my money on "&^c &^c", in other words "etcetera etcetera" with the "c" underlined and superscript. This makes sense and leads into the the conclusion, which is "a strange and intricate mass of moving humanity" as pointed out above.

It should be possible to test this theory because he probably writes "&c" elsewhere in the War Diary.

John 

[Bob Davies]

7 hours ago, PRC said:

So after motor cycle we have the authors symbol for "and" followed by what appears to be two letters. My first thought was whether they were upper case "B"\"S" or lower case "e" \ "n" \ "k" and tried looking for comparable letter formation elsehere in the text. Then the penny dropped.

Could it be a combination of the two, split by a slash - "B/c" for Bicycle. In the context of the passage it would make sense. "despatch riders on horse + on motor cycle + B/c".

Cheers,
Peter

Hi Peter and all, not wishing to lose my bet of rum ration However my mind is open to all the suggestions. Now, how common were motorcycles with side cars and did dispatch riders use them in this period of the war? We know that there was a bicycle corps and cavalry units using bicycles, so they were a common sight. What year and where are we looking at @David_Blanchard? Cheers, Bob.

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, johntaylor said:

should be possible to test this theory because he probably writes "&c" elsewhere in the War

My vote is with &c&c

[David_Blanchard]

Bob,

 

This is from the the WD of the ADMS 50 Division 22/23 April 1915, the beginning of the gas attack at 2nd Ypres.

 

WO/95/2815

 

David

 

 

[Bob Davies]

19 minutes ago, David_Blanchard said:

 

This is from the the WD of the ADMS 50 Division 22/23 April 1915, the beginning of the gas attack at 2nd Ypres.

Thank David, a cursory search of motorcycles shows not many pics of side cars. A change of tack now, the only other thing that clogs up roads and trenches is stretcher bearers. +s/b or +S/B or +sb with a large flourish separating the s and connecting the letter b

Edited 11 September , 2022 by Bob Davies

[PRC]

4 hours ago, johntaylor said:

This could be correct, but the symbols seem to be repeated and I would put my money on "&^c &^c", in other words "etcetera etcetera" with the "c" underlined and superscript.

Looking at what is literally there then would appear to be no ampersands present and going to the lengths of writing in superscript and then underlining it would break the natural flow for a writer using cursive. As the author seems to struggle to dot all his lower case "i"'s and some of those present tend to be a bit wayward, to me that doesn't smack of someone writing in a slow and labourious way that would lend itself to underling superscript letters.

There are already 4 examples in the passage where the same symbol appears to be used in place of "and" and they are broadly comparable to the next character after motor cycle.

However the mystery word \ letters do fall at an odd place. The last bit, for which there seems to be a growing consensus, is "a strange +intricate mass of moving humanity",  which starts with a lower case "a". So either the sentence starts in that mystery gap, or there should be some punctuation to extend it on from the list of modes of transport used by despatch riders. The alternative is that the writer isn't to hung up on style and writing niceties!

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Bob Davies]

A bit further on in the diary he writes stretcher bearers in abbreviation. I think what we are looking at is the abbreviation for bearers.  ie  brs    (24-4-1915) EDIT HERE; My mistake, @David_Blanchard these words read an abbreviation of 'Head Quarters' as do my following example from the WD.

Edited 12 September , 2022 by Bob Davies

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Looking at what is literally there then would appear to be no ampersands present and going to the lengths of writing in superscript and then underlining it would break the natural flow for a writer using cursive. As the author seems to struggle to dot all his lower case "i"'s and some of those present tend to be a bit wayward, to me that doesn't smack of someone writing in a slow and labourious way that would lend itself to underling superscript letters.

There are already 4 examples in the passage where the same symbol appears to be used in place of "and" and they are broadly comparable to the next character after motor cycle.

I see where Peter is comng from, but the first character after "motor cycle" does seem to me akin to how this writer produces an ampisand, and then the next character does look to me like a superscript "c." with a line under it. The author regularly draws a line under e.g. the superscript "th" in 5th etc., in the same section of the WD, just as my grandfather would regularly shorten "Battalion" to "Bn" with a superscript "n" with a line under it, no matter how quickly he seems to have been scribbling. I had a look to see whether my grandfather ever wrote the shortening "&c." but sadly he always seems to have shortened "et cetera" to the more familiar "etc." I am, however, with @johntaylor in thinking that this is &c &c , with the "c" in superscript (sorry, I am not sure how to do superscript on here!).

It would be interesting to know if there are any other examples of "et cetera" abbreviated in the WD by the same hand.

 

Edited 11 September , 2022 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[Bob Davies]

Another from 13-4-15. '11 pm.  Divisional stretcher bearers had not arrived'   EDIT HERE; My mistake, these words read an abbreviation of 'Head Quarters' .

Edited 12 September , 2022 by Bob Davies