PRO Records

[MelPack]

I have been trying to research the records of my paternal grandfather who served with the Royal Dragoons and was badly gassed at some juncture. I secured his Regiment number and SWB details from the medal roll and after that ordered, by way of the internet service, copies of his records from the folllowing PRO pieces:

W0 364/2804 Pensions

W0/364/4914 Pension Mis-Sorts

W0363/P29 Burnt Records

W0329/2960-61 Cavalry SWB Records

My understanding was that the service records of those who received a pension were intact and had been used to replenish the W0363 series. To my surprise, all the searches have come back as negative.

Am I to assume that the records no longer exist or would the more experienced researcher recommend a personal vist to Kew?

Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks

Mel

[Chris_Baker]

My understanding was that the service records of those who received a pension were intact and had been used to replenish the W0363 series. To my surprise, all the searches have come back as negative.

Hello Mel

As far as I know, the papers in WO364 were only a sample of those that related to men who had been discharged to pension, not the whole lot.

According to PRO "WO 364: War Office: Soldiers' Documents from Pension Claims, First World War, are sometimes referred to as the 'Unburnt Documents'. They have been microfilmed by volunteers of the Genealogical Society of Utah under an agreement with the Ministry of Defence. The WO 364 series consists of microfilm copies of service records of non-commissioned officers and other ranks who were discharged from the Army and claimed disability pensions for war service between 1914 and 1920 and did not re-enlist prior to the outbreak of the Second World War. The provenance of these records is important in understanding that they are unlikely to contain any papers for men who were either killed in action and had no dependants or who were discharged as part of the demobilisation at the end of the war and did not claim a pension. If seeking a particular record you should be aware of the substantial possibility that it does not survive in this series."

There is also an often overlooked further collection of pension-related records in series PIN26.

It might well be worth another look. It will just nag away at you until you are sure. Be prepared for disappointment though as the odds are against you. There are several people on this forum who might offer to help, and one or two more who offer a professional service for doing this. I'm sure they will respond here.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Melpack,

One other category missing from your list is WO 363 Missorts.

Ian

[MelPack]

Chris

Thanks for the tip on the PIN26 series. I have checked the series using the PROCAT reader and the OR: Army subseries only goes from Hare (PIN26/22757) to Morrison (PIN26/22800). Still, the description of the disabilities were pretty graphic!

C'est le vie!

Mel

[Sue Light]

Mel

I notice that you have only quoted two WO364 references. There are in fact four runs to check in that series, which can be described as two main runs, each with a separate mis-sorts. So it would certainly be worth having another look at WO364 - with only two refs. there must have been a lot of records not examined.

Regards - Sue

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Mel - there are a few issues here. Firstly, as has already been pointed out, all of the relevant films havent been searched - most service record searches for a man who survived the war require the examination of six seperate films - 4No 364's and 2No 363's - the reason why, time after time, these searches are not properly completed is because normally you CANNOT identify all of the required film numbers using NA's Procat search engine.

The reason for this is simple - WO363 and 364 are indexed by first and last names on each film, so if your man (or someone with exactly the same christian and surnames) doesnt appear as first or last name on all relevant films (which is unlikely in the extreme) than as far as Procat is concerned he "doesnt exist". This is one of those instances when the old paper based technology (the printed indexes) beats the all-singing all-dancing digital technology hands down (provided you know how to use the lists, that is).

The second point is - how did you have searches made by NA (PRO) ? - The NA dont have a research service - they have no staff to do paid research for the public, and they have no remit to carry out research for the public, - and in fact are in an amount of turmoil at the moment because of the complexities of that issue and the associated implications of the full implementation of the Freedom of Information Act at the beginning of 2005. If you have paid NA for a "photocopying estimate" for any document(s), and think you have been paying for some "research service", then you have either badly misunderstood NA's explanation of their copy estimate service, or you have been misled. In any case, what you think you've paid for and what you got are probably poles appart - the very fact that a patently miss-specified WO363 / 364 "search" was glibly carried out (you hope !) tells you all you need to know - whoever did it had no idea how 363 / 364 "works", and quite probably couldnt tell you when WW1 took place.

And - "WO364 contains ...... " - Well I suppose at least NA seem to have largely dropped those old references to 364 containing only records for men who got a pension, and have softened the "official" position to "applied for a pension" (though "got a pension" is still doled out willy-nilly by those who one would hope to know better). Someday I suppose the guide notes / staff advice to 364 may be formulated by someone who actually looks at 364 records .............. Regards - Tom

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Tom,

Sorry to deviate from the topic but why hasn't the powers that be at the NA approached you or David Lloyd or some of the other professional researchers with an eye to training the staff?

Or has this been done?

Or do they have induction training already in place?

Ian

[armourersergeant]

Some one to research for me?

You have got to be kidding, best time of my life with nose in sheets or film hunting etc it was what i was made for, sorry i cant do it every day. Filled in a school test thingy once it said i should seek employment in armed services, history, archeology or researching. Oh good said i and fell straight into sales...Doh

Thats military and political history anything else, yes could do with someone doing the 'mundane' stuff.

Arm.

Ps Advice thats a different matter but then i have my Pals to guide me, perhaps the Pro should promote this site and forum as a good helpers guide to researching the Great War.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

No no no.............my fault!

What I was trying to say was that some of the professional researchers are the best people to induct new staff at the NA with regard to the basics of the filing system, what entries mean, what can be found in them etc etc. This does not mean that they are training them to be researchers, just reliable 'first points' of information.

There have been a number of instances reported on this forum where NA staff have been overheard giving totally wrong information to visitors or who have misled 'pals'. To someone who is probably only ever going to make one or maybe two trips to research 'grandad' this is not right.

A rudimentary introduction to the basics ie MICs, WO 329, WO 363, WO364, WO95 is very important.

Ian

[MelPack]

Dear All

Thanks for your replies.

I originally used the Procat Reader to identify the appropriate alphabetical subseries to secure photocopies of the medal index cards of my two grandfathers. The service provided was first rate. I was supplied with photocopies of about fifteen index cards for my paternal grandfather because of the coincidence of the surname and first name or initials of the service men.

After that experience, I assumed (perhaps naively) that it would be possible to order photocopies of the service records (if they still exist) by identifying the appropriate alphabetical subseries and simply placing the order over the internet. Hence for Pack, I selected WO364/2804 and WO363/P29 because the surname fell within the first and last sequential alphabetical names. I was completely unaware that there were multiple runs that required checking. Moreover, I was also completely unaware that my request for photocopies constituted research with which the PRO would not assist.

Perhaps this is all a salutary lesson for the inexperienced researcher? I am perplexed, bewildered and heading for a dark room to recuperate!

Regards

Mel

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Tom, Sorry to deviate from the topic but why hasn't the powers that be at the NA approached you or David Lloyd or some of the other professional researchers with an eye to training the staff? Or has this been done? Or do they have induction training already in place? Ian

Ian - no they havent, and no I dont want them to, and no they dont need to, - and in any case David L has enough on his hands with me bothering him every time I come across a medal to some obscure colonial campaign which wasnt under the control of messrs French or Haig - which leads on to >

NA dont need to "import" any outside advice which would be relevant to sorting out the problems encountered when seeking advice from the help-points, - they already have members of staff who have a level of expertise in the military records which goes way beyond my "area", which is essentially limited to the records relating to the WW1 period, and to a lesser extent other conflicts between 1899 and 1946. The "problem" is more complicated than it appears - there is a "failing" on NA's part in that they do not facilitate the ready availability of adequately knowlegable staff to deal with the public "up-front" - but the NA are subject to financial constraints and I doubt if that ideal can ever be achieved.

What you have to bear in mind here is that front desk staff have to deal with queries ranging from bows & arrows warfare (nearly !) through to the nuclear age, and no one is ever going to be fully conversent with all of the records, or the nuances of the records, over such a wide subject field. The more knowlegable staff are (inevitably) at the higher end of the scale and are allocated time on the front line on a very restricted basis - that's not their decision, that's just the way the system works - like virtually any other "business" you will ever come across.

I dont want this to sound at all derogatory, it certainly isnt meant to be, but it is almost a natural inevitability that the staff interfacing with the public might not be quite so knowlegable as you'd want them to be - with regards to the ONE PARTICULAR SUBJECT which "we" have an especial interest in.

I'm not condoning things like # WW1 DCM's had no citations # look in the LG for MM citations # dont bother looking at medal rolls because they tell you nothing that the cards dont tell you (what is this fascination with mic "look-ups" - I really cannot understand it at all, it's like slapping two slices of bread together and calling the result a sandwich !) # tank drivers were all ex Cavalry # and the old favorite, I'm looking for what grandad did in the war - look at the medal cards over there, and the trench maps are upstairs .......... though I havent heard that one for ages, which is a pity, 'cos it used to brighten up my day ...

There is a temptation here to think of what Mark Twain said about appearing to be stupid, but look at it another way - a lot of the "information" which people pass on has been given to them by other people - the NA staff advising that DCM's have no citations may just be passing on what some misguided collegue has told them, and they have accepted it as fact. I think that if you trawl through postings on this forum you will find - exactly the same thing. That's life !

I have an idea that efforts are being made to address this situation at NA, certainly people at NA are aware that the issue has been raised.

Mel - your additional information was interesting, and "useful".

Repeat - I'm volunteering for nothing ! - regards - Tom

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Tom,

Many thanks for your detailed reply. I have a better understanding of the situation.

Ian

[Gary Samson]

... most service record searches for a man who survived the war require the examination of six seperate films - 4No 364's and 2No 363's.

Is it safe to assume that as soon as you get a 'hit' in a particular series you can stop searching or is there a possibility of, say, finding further information in WO 364 having already located service records in WO 363, and vice versa? My grandfather's WO 363 record runs to just a couple of pages so I've also checked WO 364 (main runs and mis-sorts) but without any further success. Were these subsequent searches a waste of time?

Gary

[Michael]

Terry Reeves mentioned in another thread that he found 3 records across both series, so no your efforts weren't necessarily in vain.

Michael

[Gary Samson]

Thanks for the pointer, Michael. I missed Ian's original thread 'Files in Both WO 363 & WO 364' and Terry's contribution to it.

Gary

[j.r.f]

dear pals

may i make a suggestion? It seems to me that a lot of time and effort is used on instructing fellow pals what to do,and this is great.but i think we may be missing an opertunity to help us all.

suggestion

why dont we produce downloadable crib sheets?

fro example.1 how do i find my grand fathers medal entitlement? m i c? Can this be done on line,or part on line if not where do i go?

2 How do i find my grandfathers war record?where do i start?can i do any on line?

i know some of these answers and i am sure they will be forthcomming.If we had crib sheets,for me,the idiots guideto ----,they would be very usefull and do away with going over the same ground again and again.

so i hear you thats a l,ot of work .well yes.iwill offer to do what i can and as my expertese grows i could do more.just an idea what do the pals think?

[Chris_Baker]

Nice one jrf.

If any of our more experienced PRO researchers (or even our inexperienced ones) would like to create something, I would be very happy to make it a downloadable document from both the forum and "Grandad's war" on www.1914-1918.net.

[Guest BenB]

I have only recently signed up to this Forum, and am also new to family research stuff, particularly WW1. I found this post, which I feel, aught to be resurrected.

On my first visit to NA Kew I really struggled. I had done some prior research but obviously not enough. Most staff seemed extremely helpful, but those in the Research Enquiries Room appeared to be volunteers and were doing there own research.

I eventually found some How to ..guides which helped but they do not appear to go far enough!

If anyone would care to make up an idiots guide to researching I would be only to pleased!!

One question if your man started his service in the Royal Dragoons and was later injured and returned to another unit and then was promoted and comleted his service in The Machine Gun Corp would each unit have some documentation on him or was it forwarded from unit to unit. Which Regiment/corp/unit would you start to look??

BenB