11th April 1917 1st Royal Irish Fusiliers - Arras (Fampoux)

[monkstown]

I downloaded WO-95-1446 which describes the plans and what happened on the above date and location. It also gives casualty numbers. Is it possible to find a list of the actual names of the officers (and other ranks) who were casualties that particular day?

Thanks

[jonbem]

55 minutes ago, monkstown said:

I downloaded WO-95-1446 which describes the plans and what happened on the above date and location. It also gives casualty numbers. Is it possible to find a list of the actual names of the officers (and other ranks) who were casualties that particular day?

Thanks

You might get the odd officer mentioned in the war diary, but rare for other ranks.

If you go to CWGC Find war dead | War graves search | CWGC

and put the  regiment in the filter choices, and the date in the Additional Fields you should get those who sadly died.

Find War Dead | Search Results | CWGC

Other casualties that survived would need more in depth research.

regards

Jon

[monkstown]

Thank you very much jonbem - that's exactly the type of information I was looking for.

 

A further question - 1st Bn (87th) is given for Capt William Arthur Verschoyle  - '87th' is not given for any of the other deaths listed for that day. Does its appearance there, and lack of appearance with other names, actually signify anything important?

Edited 26 August , 2022 by monkstown

[Acknown]

The War Diary at TNA, WO 95/1482/1 (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352154 - free to download if you sign in), states that Capt W A Verschoyle was killed and Capt H A MacMullan was wounded. It also states that all the officers of C and D Companies became casualties, requiring CSM Neville to take control. Whether any more of the officer casualties were in fact killed is unclear, they are often listed in a WD, but I suspect this one is not complete in that respect. Otherwise, the casualties may have been wounded. A cross check with CWGC, as Jon suggests above, will shed further light.

Note that some who died on later dates may have been wounded on 11 Apr.

Acknown

[monkstown]

Thanks Acknown - I hadn't seen that War Diary.  Capt Verschoyle is the man in whom I am interested.

 

Thanks very much Acknown - 'fascinating' is the wrong word, but so moving to see the sad details there of  'my man' .

Edited 26 August , 2022 by monkstown

[Michelle Young]

47 minutes ago, monkstown said:

Thank you very much jonbem - that's exactly the type of information I was looking for.

 

A further question - 1st Bn (87th) is given for Capt William Arthur Verschoyle  - '87th' is not given for any of the other deaths listed for that day. Does its appearance there, and lack of appearance with other names, actually signify anything important?

RIF were formed  in 1881 by amalgamating the 87 and 89 regiments of foot. 

[monkstown]

Thanks Michelle - does the appearance of the designation 87th in Capt Verschoyle's record, and its non-appearance in all the other RIF records of that day, signify anything - or is it just a clerical 'aberration'?

[Michelle Young]

I really don’t know, maybe just clerical aberration as you say. 

[monkstown]

Thanks Michelle

Edited 26 August , 2022 by monkstown

[jonbem]

48 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

RIF were formed  in 1881 by amalgamating the 87 and 89 regiments of foot. 

 

24 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

I really don’t know, maybe just clerical aberration as you say. 

Can I suggest he was originally in the 87th before moving to the amalgamated RIF?

Perhaps, although I'm not sure, the Army Lists may give an inkling?

Army lists - British Military lists - National Library of Scotland (nls.uk)

I don't know how far, to what year, they go back.

Or look up any history of the 87th Foot?

87th (Royal Irish Fusiliers) Regiment of Foot - Wikipedia

Edited 26 August , 2022 by jonbem

[johntaylor]

It may be he was originally in the 87th Foot, though the old numbering system seems to have persisted in some circles as a kind of clerical shorthand. It's used frequently in the WO 338 indexes of officers' services at the National Archives, and I couldn't make head or tail of it at first. Of course that still doesn't explain why the CWGC used it in this case.

John

 

[monkstown]

Thank you both - plenty to work on here.

[Colin W Taylor]

A lot of pre-war regulars used the old regimental numbers to refer to their units, as stated by John above. Recording him as being 87th might be a mark of respect to show him as being an original member of the 1st Bn from 1914 or before. It's worth checking if Verschoyle embarked in 1914 with the battalion.

[Acknown]

2 hours ago, Colin W Taylor said:

It's worth checking if Verschoyle embarked in 1914 with the battalion.

His MIC states '15 Star' (Ancestry), so presumably not:

The above referenced War Diary for Jun 15 states: 'Lt Verschoyle took over command of C Company - 29 May 15'. It is unclear if he was already in the battalion or if that was on his arrival. I couldn't find his name earlier in the WD and the battalion recorded its officer arrivals and departures, but it would be worth reading the WD Jan - May 15 to see if I missed him.

Acknown

Edited 28 August , 2022 by Acknown

[monkstown]

And again - thanks so much!

 

Re Colin W Taylor wondering did he embark with the battalion in 1914 - is it because of the (19)15 star [if I understand Wikipedia correctly] that you surmise he didn't embark in 1914 i.e. didn't fight pre-1915?

 

My knowledge of the details of WW1 leaves a lot yet to learn!

 

 

Edited 29 August , 2022 by monkstown

[Acknown]

Here's a reference from the LLT (a 'go to' website for all WW1 matters): https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/the-british-campaign-medals-for-the-great-war/. You can see that he earned the 14-15 Star (shorthand 15 Star on his MIC). That means that he did not serve with the establishment of his unit in France and Belgium between 05 Aug 14 and 22/23 Nov 14. 1st RIF arrived in France on 23 Aug 14.

Acknown

[monkstown]

Thank you.

Just reading the WD now and I see:

10th May 1915 ....The following officers joined the Battalion from the Transport Section .... Lt Verscoyle [sic]   and as well as taking over command of C Company (as noted above by Acknown) his 'good service' was noted in the Appendix that same day 29/5/1915.

 

I'll continue reading...

Edited 29 August , 2022 by monkstown

[Acknown]

Good spot. I'm not sure what the transport section was. I've looked at the 10 Brigade War Diary and it records the arrival of three RIF reinforcement officers that day. However, the WD lists four plus two from the RIR. Maybe the transport section was the unit that delivered them (a battalion had such a horse-drawn section: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/the-work-of-the-transport-section-of-an-infantry-battalion/), but perhaps others will know better.

Acknown

Edited 29 August , 2022 by Acknown

[monkstown]

Thank you

[Andy Shaw]

You may already have this picture which shows officers of the 1st Battalion in August 1915, Taken at the "Little Chateau" Achuex;  HQ of the reserve battalion of  the 10th Infantry Brigade, Lieutenant Verscoyle is third row back, marked in red.

[monkstown]

Thanks very much, Andy - no, I had never seen that. May I forward it to Lt Verschoyle's 1st cousin (once removed!) who is not a forum member? 

Edited 3 September , 2022 by monkstown

[Andy Shaw]

no problem, message me your email address and I will send you a high res image

[Andy Shaw]

Found another picture of him from 1913

[monkstown]

On 03/09/2022 at 19:25, Andy Shaw said:

no problem, message me your email address and I will send you a high res image

Ansy - just checking if you received my DM with email address?
Thanks