Identifying service/unit from uniform

[EmmaS]

Good afternoon,

I've found the attached photo which I believe is of one of my great uncles.  Could anyone help me identify which regiment/unit he served in from the uniform he's wearing please?

With many thanks

Emma

 

Edited 15 August , 2022 by EmmaS

[PRC]

Royal Army Medal Corps, Regular or New Army but not Territorials would be my laymans guess - now let the real experts begin

Cheers,
Peter

[cmf]

Hi Emma,

As PRC said, but he could very well be a member of a Territorial Force unit as well - your great-uncle is wearing an embroidered, or printed, slip-on cloth title, with the initialism of his parent corps, the R.A.M.C. in white on khaki. These began to be introduced in spring, 1916, as an economy measure, though never supplanted the existing brass shoulder-titles. From early 1917, regulations demanded that the slip-on titles be stitched to the upper sleeve, just below the shoulder, though these were often not enforced, and in 1919 the cloth titles were withdrawn from wear in favour of a full return to brass.

Now, although the regulation brass shoulder titles as worn by R.A.M.C. units of the Territorial Force would have differed from those of their regular counterparts, the problems of separate supply meant that by the late war period the same title was being issued to regulars and T.F., though old soldiers often held on to their original insignia. The slip-on titles, however, were only of one design per regiment or corps, and issued to regulars and Territorials alike.

Chris

 

Edited 16 August , 2022 by cmf

[PRC]

1 hour ago, cmf said:

your great-uncle is wearing an embroidered, or printed, slip-on cloth title, with the initialism of his parent corps, the R.A.M.C. in white on khaki. These began to be introduced in spring, 1916, as an economy measure, though never supplanted the existing brass shoulder-titles. From early, 1917, regulations demanded that the slip-on titles be stitched to the upper sleeve, just below the shoulder, though these were often not enforced, and in 1919 the cloth titles were withdrawn from wear in favour of a full return to brass.

Now, although the regulation brass shoulder titles as worn by R.A.M.C. units of the Territorial Force would have differed from those of their regular counterparts, the problems of separate supply meant that by the late war the same title was being issued to regulars and T.F., though old soldiers often held on to their original insignia. The slip-on titles, however, were only of one design per regiment or corps, and issued to regulars and Territorials alike.

Everyday a schoolday

Cheers,
Peter

[EmmaS]

Thank you both.  So a Private in the R.A.M.C. in around 1916.

I'm not sure which of my great uncles the photo is of - my grandmother was one of 18 children! - so this will hopefully give me a starting point to pin down which of her brothers this is.

Best wishes
Emma

[cmf]

Hi Emma,

No problem, happy to help! Do you have any likely names available for your Great Uncles?

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

These are his badges Emma.  The cloth Red Cross was specially authorised by the international Red Cross organisation as a special badge to be worn on the arm by all members of the Royal Army Medical Corps below the rank of commissioned officer, specifically to mark them out as non combatants.

Edited 15 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[EmmaS]

59 minutes ago, cmf said:

Hi Emma,

No problem, happy to help! Do you have any likely names available for your Great Uncles?

Chris

Possibly Robert Thomas (born 1888, Bushops Hull, Nr Taunton, Somerset) or Samuel Thomas (born 1885, Norton Fitzwarren, Nr Taunton). 

There's also Frederick Thomas (born 1879, Norton Fitzwarren). And Christopher William Thomas but he was 1900 so too young.

Another brother, James Thomas (born 1881, Norton Fitzwarren) was a baker in R A.S.C (S256298).

Emma

24 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

These are his badges Emma.  The RAMC was specially authorised by the international Red Cross organisation as a badge to be worn on the arm by all members of the Royal Army Medical Corps below the rank of commissioned officer, specifically to mark them out as non combatants.

Many thanks

[EmmaS]

15 hours ago, EmmaS said:

Possibly Robert Thomas (born 1888, Bushops Hull, Nr Taunton, Somerset) or Samuel Thomas (born 1885, Norton Fitzwarren, Nr Taunton). 

There's also Frederick Thomas (born 1879, Norton Fitzwarren). And Christopher William Thomas but he was 1900 so too young.

Another brother, James Thomas (born 1881, Norton Fitzwarren) was a baker in R A.S.C (S256298).

Emma

Many thanks

Well. I've drawn a blank at the moment.

Robert Thomas was in the Navy until 1914 (363933) and then the ASC (R4/139751) and the Somerset Light Infantry (38172), so not him.  But not finding anything for Samuel or Frederick.

The search continues!

[EmmaS]

On 16/08/2022 at 14:00, EmmaS said:

Well. I've drawn a blank at the moment.

Robert Thomas was in the Navy until 1914 (363933) and then the ASC (R4/139751) and the Somerset Light Infantry (38172), so not him.  But not finding anything for Samuel or Frederick.

The search continues!

Good afternoon,

Just to update, I've finally managed to identify him via the 1918 absent voters roll for Bridgwater as my great uncle Frederick Thomas, b1879.  His address on the roll (28 Blacklands St, Bridgwater) is correct and gives his service details as 190577 Pte RAMC.  Unfortunately I can find no service records for his name with that number on any of the usual databases.

Best wishes
Emma

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, EmmaS said:

Good afternoon,

Just to update, I've finally managed to identify him via the 1918 absent voters roll for Bridgwater as my great uncle Frederick Thomas, b1879.  His address on the roll (28 Blacklands St, Bridgwater) is correct and gives his service details as 190577 Pte RAMC.  Unfortunately I can find no service records for his name with that number on any of the usual databases.

Best wishes
Emma

His record is probably among those destroyed by incendiary bombing on the London storage facility in 1941 Emma, 5/6th of them were.

[EmmaS]

51 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

His record is probably among those destroyed by incendiary bombing on the London storage facility in 1941 Emma, 5/6th of them were.

Unfortunately I couldn't even find a medal roll entry for him but was lucky an absent voters roll was available for Bridgwater and I could identify him that way.  Lovely to be able to put a name to the face at last.

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, EmmaS said:

Unfortunately I couldn't even find a medal roll entry for him but was lucky an absent voters roll was available for Bridgwater and I could identify him that way.  Lovely to be able to put a name to the face at last.

Yes you have been tenacious, and it has paid off. 👍

Edited 28 July , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

3 hours ago, EmmaS said:

190577 Pte RAMC

I've gone thirty service numbers either side of that on FindMyPast and found nothing. Even home service men might have died or been honourably discharged and received the Silver War Badge. It could just have been me choosing the wrong search parameters so it's not definative and I don't subscribeso can't check out all the medical admision register reports that came back as "matches" - just seems a bit odd. A surviving service records for a man with a near number might at least have shed some light on the circumstances in which his service began.

It would also appear to be unlikely that he was Territorial Force, (TF). At the start of 1917 in an attempt to standardise the service numbering scheme in use, all men serving in the ranks with the TF received a new service number, which came from the block allocated to his unit. The first number used for the TF RAMC renumbering was 300001. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-royal-army-medical-corps-in-1917/

Cheers,
Peter

[EmmaS]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

I've gone thirty service numbers either side of that on FindMyPast and found nothing. Even home service men might have died or been honourably discharged and received the Silver War Badge. It could just have been me choosing the wrong search parameters so it's not definative and I don't subscribeso can't check out all the medical admision register reports that came back as "matches" - just seems a bit odd. A surviving service records for a man with a near number might at least have shed some light on the circumstances in which his service began.

It would also appear to be unlikely that he was Territorial Force, (TF). At the start of 1917 in an attempt to standardise the service numbering scheme in use, all men serving in the ranks with the TF received a new service number, which came from the block allocated to his unit. The first number used for the TF RAMC renumbering was 300001. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-royal-army-medical-corps-in-1917/

Cheers,
Peter

Many thanks for looking Peter,

Frederick did survive the war and in 1921 was back living at 28 Blacklands St, Bridgwater.  He was lodging with a cousin so maybe they got his service number wrong on the absent voters roll?  He died in 1961.

Best wishes
Emma

[charlie962]

190577 is the service number for Henry George Thomas of  28 Blacklands, Bridgewater. 

But it is an RAF service number!

Can you double check that absent voters roll please? 

Charlie

[charlie962]

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

190577 is the service number for Henry George Thomas of  28 Blacklands, Bridgewater. 

But it is an RAF service number!

Can you double check that absent voters roll please? 

Charlie

His cousin Frederick was staying with him in the 1911 census.

[EmmaS]

4 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

His cousin Frederick was staying with him in the 1911 census.

Yes that's right. Frederick was his lodger.  Interestingly Henry isn't listed on the absent voters roll.  I guess his service number must have been errroneously attributed to Frederick.

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, EmmaS said:

Frederick was his lodger.  Interestingly Henry isn't listed on the absent voters roll.  I guess his service number must have been errroneously attributed to Frederick.

It could be a transcription error. Is it possible to get back to the original?

[EmmaS]

19 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

It could be a transcription error. Is it possible to get back to the original?

Unfortunately not without a visit to the local heritage centre 

https://somerset-cat.swheritage.org.uk/records/Q/RER/13/2

[Tawhiri]

There are medal index cards for four separate individuals named Frederick Thomas who served with the Royal Army Medical Corps, assuming that your Frederick Thomas had no middle name. The pool widens considerably if he did have a middle name, or his name was simply recorded as F Thomas. Given his birth place was Norton Fitzwarren, I'm going to assume that he is the Frederick Thomas who's birth was registered in Taunton, Somerset in the third quarter of 1879. Unfortunately the GRO website is down for maintenance at the moment so I cannot cross-check his mother's maiden name to confirm that this is the right birth.

The four individuals named Frederick Thomas who served with the Royal Army Medical Corps are:

Frederick Thomas	Royal Army Medical Corps	2028
Frederick Thomas	Royal Army Medical Corps	35928
Frederick Thomas	Royal Army Medical Corps	38969
Frederick Thomas	Royal Army Medical Corps	56061

The last column is their service number. The third individual (38969) ended up as a Lance-Corporal, while the last three (35928, 38969, and 56061) all entered a theatre of war in 1915. The first individual (2028) first entered a theatre of war after the end of 1915, and ended up as a Corporal.

Trying to drill down a little more, the first individual also appears to have a pension index card, with a next of kin mentioned, which might yield some more information. Unfortunately I no longer have full access to Ancestry so I can't tell you anymore, perhaps one of our members who does have full access could tell you more. Nothing further, apart from the their medal index card and two medal roll entries (British War and Victory Medals, and 1915 Star rolls respectively) is coming up for the other three individuals.

There are also two Fred Thomas' who served with the Royal Army Medical Corps. One of them (service # 476) appears to have surviving service record that names an Albert Thomas, so I'm going to assume this eliminates him. His medal index card also shows that he first entered a theatre of war after the end of 1915. The second Fred Thomas (service # 64967) also only entered a theatre of war after the end of 1915.

I know nothing about how service numbers were allocated for the Royal Army Medical Corps, so I have no idea if you can even link a service number to a specific geographical location that might help to eliminate one or more of the Frederick Thomas' found above.

Edited 29 July , 2023 by Tawhiri

[EmmaS]

21 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

There are medal index cards for four separate individuals named Frederick Thomas who served with the Royal Army Medical Corps, assuming that your Frederick Thomas had no middle name. The pool widens considerably if he did have a middle name, or his name was simply recorded as F Thomas. Given his birth place was Norton Fitzwarren, I'm going to assume that he is the Frederick Thomas who's birth was registered in Taunton, Somerset in the third quarter of 1879. Unfortunately the GRO website is down for maintenance at the moment so I cannot cross-check his mother's maiden name to confirm that this is the right birth.

The four individuals named Frederick Thomas who served with the Royal Army Medical Corps are:

Frederick Thomas	Royal Army Medical Corps	2028
Frederick Thomas	Royal Army Medical Corps	35928
Frederick Thomas	Royal Army Medical Corps	38969
Frederick Thomas	Royal Army Medical Corps	56061

The last column is their service number. The third individual (38969) ended up as a Lance-Corporal, while the last three (35928, 38969, and 56061) all entered a theatre of war in 1915. The first individual (2028) first entered a theatre of war after the end of 1915, and ended up as a Corporal.

Trying to drill down a little more, the first individual also appears to have a pension index card, with a next of kin mentioned, which might yield some more information. Unfortunately I no longer have full access to Ancestry so I can't tell you anymore, perhaps one of our members who does have full access could tell you more. Nothing further, apart from the their medal index card and two medal roll entries (British War and Victory Medals, and 1915 Star rolls respectively) is coming up for the other three individuals.

There are also two Fred Thomas' who served with the Royal Army Medical Corps. One of them (service # 476) appears to have surviving service record that names an Albert Thomas, so I'm going to assume this eliminates him. His medal index card also shows that he first entered a theatre of war after the end of 1915. The second Fred Thomas (service # 64967) also only entered a theatre of war after the end of 1915.

I know nothing about how service numbers were allocated for the Royal Army Medical Corps, so I have no idea if you can even link a service number to a specific geographical location that might help to eliminate one or more of the Frederick Thomas' found above.

@Tawhiri Many thanks for all your help. 

Having looked at a range of records I've worked it down to 3 possibles - 38969, 56061, 64967 but not enought info to confirm which.  The others had incorrect addresses when I dug deeper.  I;ve also looked through F Thomas's too but none matched age/location.