IMPERIAL ARMY / MTD Shoulder Title

[MILCOLLECTORBLUE]

I was rather hoping someone could shed some light on the attached shoulder title.  It is marked 'RJ Inglis Ltd' (a Canadian badge maker), but I seriously doubt it was produced for Canadian soldiers.  Any information as to who wore it and when would be most gratefully received. Many thanks.

 

[Waggoner]

It is not ringing any bells for me.

[FROGSMILE]

The most comprehensive reference work that I have covering British Empire, Dominions and Dependencies insignia of WW1 is that seminal work by Reginald H W Cox.  I have scoured through every page and cannot see subject badge/title.

One thing that struck me after revisiting this book is the absolutely phenomenal number of badges associated with the Dominion of Canada (far more than the others, and either matching, or exceeding the U.K.).  The creation of units between the 2nd Boer War and the end of WW1 is staggering.  The style of subject badge is definitely commensurate with the slab like titles adopted by many (but not a majority) of Canadian units.

NB.  The term “Imperial Army” is not used on any insignia that I could see, and is an odd descriptor to use for any British associated unit.  Perhaps it is a theatrical studio prop.

Edited 12 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[MILCOLLECTORBLUE]

Thank you for your response.  I too have Cox's work along with many other badge reference books, especially those related to Canadian units, both Boer War and WW1 periods.  It doesn't show up in any of those reference books.  Google, for once, is also no help!  I also have one in my collection, but for the life of me cannot recall how it was described when I purchased it many years ago.

I have also posted a query on the British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum as I know there are many Canadian collectors who frequent it.  However, to date even that avenue seems to have stumped life-long collectors of Canadian militaria, always assuming that it might have been worn by a Canadian unit.  I still have my doubts though, even though the shoulder title was manufactured by RJ Inglis, a Canadian company established in 1875 with offices in Montreal and Winnipeg.

 

I'm sure the answer is out there ..... somewhere!

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, MILCOLLECTORBLUE said:

Thank you for your response.  I too have Cox's work along with many other badge reference books, especially those related to Canadian units, both Boer War and WW1 periods.  It doesn't show up in any of those reference books.  Google, for once, is also no help!  I also have one in my collection, but for the life of me cannot recall how it was described when I purchased it many years ago.

I have also posted a query on the British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum as I know there are many Canadian collectors who frequent it.  However, to date even that avenue seems to have stumped life-long collectors of Canadian militaria, always assuming that it might have been worn by a Canadian unit.  I still have my doubts though, even though the shoulder title was manufactured by RJ Inglis, a Canadian company established in 1875 with offices in Montreal and Winnipeg.

 

I'm sure the answer is out there ..... somewhere!

Like you I occasionally frequent the badge forum (as Toby Purcell) and have a similar collection of reference works, and cannot find it, or indeed anything like it.  If not a theatrical prop, and that seems a long shot, another thought is that it might have been a salesman’s specimen for wares made by RJ Inglis.  It would explain the distinctly unusual and rather generic wording used and it’s also notable that in a single piece it utilises two styles, the embossed slab, and the fretted lettering, which would demonstrate available styles very conveniently.  I haven’t yet found a genuine piece incorporating both designs in one piece, they are generally either one, or the other.

Edited 12 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

On 10/08/2022 at 13:05, MILCOLLECTORBLUE said:

I was rather hoping someone could shed some light on the attached shoulder title.  It is marked 'RJ Inglis Ltd' (a Canadian badge maker), but I seriously doubt it was produced for Canadian soldiers.  Any information as to who wore it and when would be most gratefully received. Many thanks.

I came across the same badge, image posted by:

British Cap Badges & Volunteer badges (petertaylormilitaria.com)

If you contact the site, they may have information on the badge.

[Acknown]

Canadians called the British Army The Imperial Army, 'The Imperials'. 

Acknown

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Acknown said:

Canadians called the British Army The Imperial Army, 'The Imperials'. 

Acknown

So made by the Canadians for the British Army?  The usage you refer to seems to have been nothing more than a colloquialism according to contemporary accounts.  Certainly not commonly seen on insignia according to the seemingly extensive investigation to date.

[Acknown]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

The usage you refer to seems to have been nothing more than a colloquialism

I believe it was, but I have read accounts of Canadian soldiers referring to The Imperials as distinct from themselves. I believe that Australians did as well. Was not the BEF in Mesopotamia known as an Imperial Force'?

Acknown

Edited 12 August , 2022 by Acknown

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Acknown said:

I believe it was, but I have read accounts of Canadian soldiers referring to The Imperials as distinct from themselves. I believe that Australians did as well. Was not the BEF in Mesopotamia known an the Imperial Force'?

Acknown

Yes, agreed.  It’s only the relevance of that to actual insignia (and by extension units) that I’m questioning Acknown.

[Acknown]

Indeed, I'm grasping at straws. I note that R.J. Inglis Limited was established in 1875, so here's another angle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Service_Troops. MTD could mean Motor Transport Driver or Mounted, but the badge looks a bit more contemporary to me. More straws.

Acknown

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Acknown said:

Indeed, I'm grasping at straws. I note that R.J. Inglis Limited was established in 1875, so here's another angle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Service_Troops. MTD could mean Motor Transport Driver or Mounted, but the badge looks a bit more contemporary to me. More straws.

Acknown

The more I look at it and think about it the more I feel that it’s a manufacturers (R J  Inglis) specimen/proof.  One-piece, that very conveniently, shows the two popular types of title, slab and fretwork.

Edited 12 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[MILCOLLECTORBLUE]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The more I look at it and think about it the more I feel that it’s a manufacturers (R J  Inglis) specimen/proof.  One-piece, that very conveniently, shows the two popular types of title, slab and fretwork.

I appreciate that a manufacturers specimen/proof is a possible avenue worthy of exploration, but it does beg the question how many such specimens they would have made?  I already have one in my collection, there is the one shown in the original post that is currently for sale, and I have seen at least another couple of these listed within the last 10 years.  Me thinks far too many to fall into the category of specimen or proof.

 

But I could be wrong......

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, MILCOLLECTORBLUE said:

I appreciate that a manufacturers specimen/proof is a possible avenue worthy of exploration, but it does beg the question how many such specimens they would have made?  I already have one in my collection, there is the one shown in the original post that is currently for sale, and I have seen at least another couple of these listed within the last 10 years.  Me thinks far too many to fall into the category of specimen or proof.

 

But I could be wrong......

I did consider that aspect and the approximate number you mention doesn’t seem that many if they had a sales group of regional travelling salesmen, as was common in the 1900s-1930s (carrying cases of insignia specimens, etc). As you say, nothing proven, but the circumstantial evidence seems pretty reasonable.  I know of no British Empire unit, whatsoever, that used a formal title (as it would need to be) of “Imperial Army”, it sounds more Japanese than anything else and doesn’t match our military culture and naming protocols.  Also the combination of slab and fretwork is not used in any other shoulder title that I can find (and like you perhaps, I’ve been studying this a long time, 50-years in my case).

NB.  Note also the lettering with and without serif.  As mentioned previously it was widespread to have either one or the other, not both.  The slab part matches the norms of the other Canadian types, block letters without serifs, with the background stippled to create contrast, and a raised edging around the border of the slab.  All very consistent with Canadian practice.

Edited 13 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[MILCOLLECTORBLUE]

On 12/08/2022 at 13:24, Allan1892 said:

I came across the same badge, image posted by:

British Cap Badges & Volunteer badges (petertaylormilitaria.com)

If you contact the site, they may have information on the badge.

As suggested above, I contacted Peter Taylor (he having sold one in the not-too-distant past) to see whether he was able to shed any light on this shoulder title.  He indicated that to the best of his knowledge the title is 'kosher' and was worn by older Canadian troops who served as backup to the CEF during WW1. 

I'll be honest and say if that was the case then I would have thought there would at least be some written evidence of such a shoulder title in the plethora of publications covering the CEF. 

In short, I remain to be convinced !   

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, MILCOLLECTORBLUE said:

As suggested above, I contacted Peter Taylor (he having sold one in the not-too-distant past) to see whether he was able to shed any light on this shoulder title.  He indicated that to the best of his knowledge the title is 'kosher' and was worn by older Canadian troops who served as backup to the CEF during WW1. 

I'll be honest and say if that was the case then I would have thought there would at least be some written evidence of such a shoulder title in the plethora of publications covering the CEF. 

In short, I remain to be convinced !   

I totally agree with your concluding comments.  There was a limited usage of the ‘Imperial’ moniker in the Australian Imperial Force (AIF) and the Indian Army used an ‘I’ in its insignia for a three letter cypher, ‘GRI’, to represent Georgius Rex Imperator.  I know of no others.  

Edited 14 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Waggoner]

In "Badges of the Empire's Waggoners", MTD refers to the Mechanical Transport Department of the Sudan Defence Force post 1925. Mike McHenry, a co-author of the book, has also suggested "Canadian Army Motor Transport Detachment/Depot, Middle East".  I think\g that he is mistaken about the Canadian connection as, to the best of my knowledge, the Canadian Army did not have a detachment of MT in the Middle East. MTD likely refers to "Mechanical Transport Depot".  There is a reoccurring Middle East connection. The "Imperial Army" differentiates this from other forces, such as the ANZACs.  On the balance, i would suggest it was worn by British troops in the Middle East during the FWW who were posted to a MTD. While neither Beaton or Young specifically mention a MTD, it is likely that there was one or more, given the extensive use of MT. 

The badge/shoulder title sold for $33.00 Cdn on eBay this week.  The buyer had over 3300 eBay transactions so likely had a good idea of what he/she was purchasing.

All the best,

Gary   

[FROGSMILE]

There’s an an old Army expression: “situating the appreciation” that sums up desperate efforts to make a sows ear into a silk purse, in the sense of manufacturing a theorem to match something inexplicable, and I think that’s apposite here.  It seems to me unconscionable that there would be no record of either, such a unit, or the formal use for insignia of “Imperial Army”, which simply flies in the face of well established naming protocols.  If it looks like a duck….

Edited 16 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Waggoner]

Or, one could try to weave together a hypothesis based on available facts and suggestions. In this case, I didn’t pursue a higher bid because I couldn’t be reasonably certain of what it was. 

All the best,

Gary

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Waggoner said:

Or, one could try to weave together a hypothesis based on available facts and suggestions. In this case, I didn’t pursue a higher bid because I couldn’t be reasonably certain of what it was. 

All the best,

Gary

We’ve known each other for too long for any offence to be taken.  In this case I think that the circumstantial evidence is weighted towards a spurious item.  If it’s not then something concrete should certainly emerge.

[MILCOLLECTORBLUE]

I'll be brutally honest and say that I decided not to bid on this shoulder title simply for 2 reasons.  Firstly, I already have one (I now recall, I think, where I obtained mine from and it came, unsurprisingly, from a large cache of Canadian badges that used to belong to Daniel Mazeas of all people).  Secondly though, despite all my attempts to establish who wore this, and when, all my investigations ended up in the same place; no one was able to provide definitive evidence as to its provenance.  I've previously heard that may be the Motor Transport Depot / Department, but again where is the evidence / proof?  I would have thought that if there was any form of Canadian connection then Mazeas would have illustrated it in any one of the numerous books he had published, but there is just a vacuum. 

So, it remains an intriguing mystery.  We just need someone to show me/us the proof. Quelqu’un a sûrement la réponse, quelque part?

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, MILCOLLECTORBLUE said:

I'll be brutally honest and say that I decided not to bid on this shoulder title simply for 2 reasons.  Firstly, I already have one (I now recall, I think, where I obtained mine from and it came, unsurprisingly, from a large cache of Canadian badges that used to belong to Daniel Mazeas of all people).  Secondly though, despite all my attempts to establish who wore this, and when, all my investigations ended up in the same place; no one was able to provide definitive evidence as to its provenance.  I've previously heard that may be the Motor Transport Depot / Department, but again where is the evidence / proof?  I would have thought that if there was any form of Canadian connection then Mazeas would have illustrated it in any one of the numerous books he had published, but there is just a vacuum. 

So, it remains an intriguing mystery.  We just need someone to show me/us the proof. Quelqu’un a sûrement la réponse, quelque part?

 

Hear, hear! 👏

[NFLDREGT]

I have one as well. It came in a small collection of mostly CEF badges that I purchased from an older lady. She said she had found them when cleaning out her uncles house after he died in the '70s.  She put the box of them away in a closet and there they remained until I purchased around 2015.

I posted the IMPERIAL ARMY/MTD title on a few Forums and one response I received was they were worn by Munitions Inspectors, British Army personnel, who were sent to Canada to inspect and accept the munitions produced in Canadian factories for British Army. At the time I tried to verify this but I couldn't find anything more than there were inspectors sent to Canada. 

 

Don