Where was C Coy, 10th Battalion on the day of the landings?

[tankengine888]

Hello!

I had a relative serving in C Coy, 10th Battalion (1138 Foster, KIA 2/4/1917) and was wounded after the landings on May 17th, 1915. I want to try and find out where the members of C Company got to in general, though my best bet would be assuming not too far past 400 Plateau… I also found out B and C Coy were on the beach first (?)

At 3AM Sunday, "B" and "C" Companies and B.H.Q left H.M.S Prince of Wales in lifeboats, and were towed to within 50 yards of the shore-this was done in absolute silence. The weather was perfect, dawn was just breaking, and the tension of feeling was almost at breaking point; so still was everything that it was thought the landing would be unopposed, but when about 30 yards from the beach, one solitary rifle opened fire closely followed by others, until the whole beach was swept with a terrific rifle and machine-gun fire-but still the boats moved on.

I have no information whatsoever via Oral history, and the war diary lacked in detail (or atleast, last time I checked). 
 

I will be VERY thankful for any information,

Tank.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

The Unit History shows the Bn replaced the 9Bn at Shell Green 1 May on the right flank.

while on the 5 May the Bn relieved the 11Bn on the left flank of Shell Green?

Things appear mixed up and no details on where companies were deployed in the main sourse, so personal accounts maybe the best here if found?

I further check may find how the Bn was used on Shell Green, as the unit history shows either it having all of Shell Green by the 5 May or just the Left Flank?

S.B

[aconnolly]

Tank - there are a couple of trench diagrams in the 3rd Brigade WD on the AWM site:  

https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/RCDIG1008494/bundled/RCDIG1008494.pdf    I can't get page numbers but about 3/4th way through

I don't know if they will help narrow it down for you.  Sadly I doubt it.  10th Battalion WD for May is indeed very sparse.

Andrew

 

[tankengine888]

Hello!

6 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

Mate,

The Unit History shows the Bn replaced the 9Bn at Shell Green 1 May on the right flank.

while on the 5 May the Bn relieved the 11Bn on the left flank of Shell Green?

Things appear mixed up and no details on where companies were deployed in the main sourse, so personal accounts maybe the best here if found?

I further check may find how the Bn was used on Shell Green, as the unit history shows either it having all of Shell Green by the 5 May or just the Left Flank?

S.B

Interesting, thanks none the less! I assume they plugged the gap for the other Battalions [though, the 10th suffered a considerable amount of casualties], but ofcourse I could be misreading your post, nonetheless, I'll have to dig in later on the weekend.

5 hours ago, aconnolly said:

Tank - there are a couple of trench diagrams in the 3rd Brigade WD on the AWM site:  

https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/RCDIG1008494/bundled/RCDIG1008494.pdf    I can't get page numbers but about 3/4th way through

I don't know if they will help narrow it down for you.  Sadly I doubt it.  10th Battalion WD for May is indeed very sparse.

Andrew

 

Pages 108, 109.
A fairly good drawing of the trenches, thanks! I'll have to dig deeper to find what I can when I have some time. 


Thanks both of you for your efforts!

Tank.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I don't know about misread, all I can say is the histories and Diaries are not conclusive here.

The closest I can find was in early may the 3rd Bde was given the area (Shell Green) to look after, as men were still sorting out after the landing.

The Bde appears to have moved the 10Bn first to the right flank of Shell Green and on the 5 May to the left flank.

By the map dated June (by andrew) you can see how the Bde was deployed most of which must of happened during May?

As it also shows the known postion of the 10Bn in June inbetween the 11Bn on the left and the 12Bn to its right on Shell Green?

The 12Bn Hisory records

in May 1915 on Shell Green

on the 12Bn right was the 9Bn

On the 12Bn left was the 10Bn

This appears to be the postions as per the June map, so they must have remained during May - June 1915

Like wise it makes no mention of the 12Bn companies postions

S.B

Edited 22 July , 2022 by stevenbecker

[aconnolly]

Tank - from Bean, Anzac vol 2 map 6 between pages 146 and 147 :

It is of the trenches on 19th so 2 days later than his wounding on 17th .  Can't see reference to specifically when the 10th took up the position nor the company formation.  Perhaps 11th or 12th battalion WDs will mention a neighbouring company??  Long shot though!

Andrew

Edited 23 July , 2022 by aconnolly

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I should add the other Bn's of the Bde.

The 11Bn History records after resting at the beach they moved into postions on Shell Green 1 May

They state the Anzac Corps orders had them in the centre with 9Bn and 12Bn's on either flank, no mention of the 10Bn (which according to them (10Bn) they were on the far Right flank of Shell Green.

As a result of a mixed Bn raid (3 May) and suffering over 400 casualties, this appears to be when the 10Bn was moved (5 May). This is not mentioned in the 11Bn History, but may account for the mention in the 10Bn History?

S.B

[tankengine888]

Hello! 

3 hours ago, aconnolly said:

Tank - from Bean, Anzac vol 2 map 6 between pages 146 and 147 :

It is of the trenches on 19th so 2 days later than his wounding on 17th .  Can't see reference to specifically when the 10th took up the position nor the company formation.  Perhaps 11th or 12th battalion WDs will mention a neighbouring company??  Long shot though!

Andrew

Thanks for the map! Very interesting to see it. Shame that companies are barely mentioned in a war diary, but what can I do 107 years later.

35 minutes ago, stevenbecker said:

Mate,

I should add the other Bn's of the Bde.

The 11Bn History records after resting at the beach they moved into postions on Shell Green 1 May

They state the Anzac Corps orders had them in the centre with 9Bn and 12Bn's on either flank, no mention of the 10Bn (which according to them (10Bn) they were on the far Right flank of Shell Green.

As a result of a mixed Bn raid (3 May) and suffering over 400 casualties, this appears to be when the 10Bn was moved (5 May). This is not mentioned in the 11Bn History, but may account for the mention in the 10Bn History?

S.B

So your saying that the 10th Battalion moved up to Shell Green on the 5th of May following that attack? Odd though how the 10th aren't mentioned.. maybe first hand accounts might be the way to go actually.

 

Sorry if I missed anything crucial, I was asleep up until now.

Tank.

[aconnolly]

Tank

Looks like working backwards from early May hasn't helped so looking at Bean for the day of the landing he refers to those companies of 10th Battalion who landed from the Destroyers (ie. A & D) and the Prince of Wales (B&C):  Bean's map show objective on day of landing.  The smaller diagram shows actual vs intended Landing

Bean (vol 1, O/H )does not seem to specifically refer to the Battalion companies but notes:

1. The men of the battleship tows of the 9th, 10th, and part of the 11th now reached the plateau (Pluggee's) Bean goes on to note as Steve has that various companies from 9th and 10th in particular became very mixed up at the Landing.  

2. "The leading men of the 10th passed into Shrapnel Gully almost due-east towards the Heights opposite.

3. "Talbot Smith with his scouts of the 10th had the duty of hurtling ahead of their battalion to find the Turkish batteries in the folds opposite the landing place".  

4. "Meanwhile the portion of the 10th which had landed from the destroyers was coming over the southern shoulder of Pluggee's (MacLagan's Ridge).  There foremost , under Lieutenant Loutit, had driven the Turks in front of it from the beach".  This means we can at least say C company from the Prince of Wales wasn't precisely here at this point on 25th April.

 There are in chronological order in Bean so comment 4 "Meanwhile...." may well support B & C company being the men who headed into Shrapnel Gully??

Andrew

 

 

Edited 23 July , 2022 by aconnolly
error corrected

[aconnolly]

Tank

By 1000 hours there was at least some organisation to 10th battalion based on Bean's map with a small group of 12th battalion men between two sets of 10th. seaward aspect of Jonhson's Jolly.

Bean makes many references to Officers and the small parties of men they led on the day - perhaps try tracing the movements of C Company 10th Batt junior officers??

Andrew

 

[tankengine888]

Hello!

Damn this is alot to take in....

As I recall, Captain Shaw took over C Coy after Jan 1915, and he lacks a mention on this [which seems understandable due to the mix up]

I see that the elements of the 7th, 10th and 12th Battalions were set up just around Scotts Point [cross referencing via another map], placing them overlooking the end of Bridges Road and Braund's Hill.. 

I see Lieutenant Loutit placed on Gun Ridge with 'Haig'... I assume that was one of the few that accompanied him.


So to sum up all this,

10th Battalion landed at Ari Burnu, then some elements headed South East towards Lone Pine [their objective was further east] and held a good portion of Lone Pine with elements overlooking Bridges Road and Braund's Hill as well as Lieutenant Loutit making it to the Third Ridge [their objective], and then Blackburn and Robin [Scouts] making it to the Scrubby Knoll
I'll try and find stuff on the officers of C Company once I figure out who was in which Company [the reorganization, etc]

I probably made a mistake in that somewhere, but thanks!

Tank.

[aconnolly]

Tank - sorry this is coming in bits but the index in Bean is a challenge!!

This helps a bit - this shows that at least a lot of B &C ultimately linked with a lot of A&D.  Whether that was everyone still alive or not evacuated back tot he Beach I cannot tell

Andrew

Edited 23 July , 2022 by aconnolly

[tankengine888]

3 minutes ago, aconnolly said:

Tank - sorry this is coming in bits but the index in Bean is a challenge!!

This helps a bit - this shows that at least a lot of B &C ultimately linked with a lot of A&D.  Whether that was everyone still alive or not evacuated back tot he Beach I cannot tell

Andrew

That makes sense, usually was taught that is was complete confusion,

the fact that they linked up makes me wonder if they merged, 'evened out' the men between groups, etc...

Anyways, thanks for the map, really good!

Tank.

[aconnolly]

Tank - from Bean as the 25th April progressed (time seems probably around 9.30/10am from interpretation).  Note:  My emphasis in Bold

"The main body of the 10th had made its way across Shrapnel Gully a little to the north of Salisbury's portion of the 9th and slightly ahead of them.  The 10th was the centre battalion; and since the two centre destroyers - and they alone - had landed their men immediately behind the battleship tows at Ari Burnu, the whole 4 companies of the battalion happened to be together.  Captain Herbert's company from the destroyer Scourge re-formed in Shrapnel Gully behind the battleship companies; and the 10th Battalion more of less complete, headed across the valley, over the foot of a minor put (Braund's Hill) and into the steep branch of the valley through which the Turks has mostly made off.

The valley up which the 10th laboured was steep, and quite sheltered, except for a dew snipers.  It was shut in on the right by the side of the 400 plateau (here formed by a narrow spur known as the "razor back".). From the razor back the side of the plateau curved northwards in front of the 10th to the point where it joined the Second Ridge."

Edit:  Bean's comment here about the landing of the four companies is somewhat at odds with the map of the landings.  I think between various sources the map is accurate but the point is the four companies reformed into a coherent unit as above.

Andrew

Edited 23 July , 2022 by aconnolly

[tankengine888]

On 23/07/2022 at 17:15, aconnolly said:

Tank - from Bean as the 25th April progressed (time seems probably around 9.30/10am from interpretation).  Note:  My emphasis in Bold

"The main body of the 10th had made its way across Shrapnel Gully a little to the north of Salisbury's portion of the 9th and slightly ahead of them.  The 10th was the centre battalion; and since the two centre destroyers - and they alone - had landed their men immediately behind the battleship tows at Ari Burnu, the whole 4 companies of the battalion happened to be together.  Captain Herbert's company from the destroyer Scourge re-formed in Shrapnel Gully behind the battleship companies; and the 10th Battalion more of less complete, headed across the valley, over the foot of a minor put (Braund's Hill) and into the steep branch of the valley through which the Turks has mostly made off.

The valley up which the 10th laboured was steep, and quite sheltered, except for a dew snipers.  It was shut in on the right by the side of the 400 plateau (here formed by a narrow spur known as the "razor back".). From the razor back the side of the plateau curved northwards in front of the 10th to the point where it joined the Second Ridge."

Edit:  Bean's comment here about the landing of the four companies is somewhat at odds with the map of the landings.  I think between various sources the map is accurate but the point is the four companies reformed into a coherent unit as above.

Andrew

Hello Andrew!

Sorry for 'leaving you out in the lurch', but I saw this and forgot to respond.. I've also had school to contend with.

I appreciate the effort put in this, and I'm starting to get a picture of the events.. Landed at Ari Burnu, the 4 Companies managed to be together [calling bull****, but other coincidences have happened in war]... Captain Mervyn James Herbert forms his company IN Shrapnel Gully [which would've been D Company following reorganization].. This steep branch of the valley... is this Wire Gully [or thereabouts]?

Sorry I'm quite hopeless with this! Second ridge is Maclaurins Hill to Johnstones Jolly?

And onto the edit part: I see what you're driving at with the 'odd' part of the companies all meeting up during the landings.. I do see D Company landed north of Ari Burnu and C Company landed directly on Plugge, but they all met up...

Sorry if I accidentally made contradicting statements or made no sense...

Anyways, thanks for that,

Tank.
 

Edited 1 August , 2022 by tankengine888