Yorkshire Trench near Ypres

[Aurel Sercu]

Mark,

Your two Conway War Mem. men, are they among these seven ?

J. Griffiths 23-07-1917

C. Williams 17-06-1917

J. Sinclair 24-06-1917

H. Owen 24-06-1917

R. Jones 15-06-1917

Lewis Jones 16-06-1917

S. Griffiths 29-07-1917

(Sorry I have not taken the time to find what Bn. these men were in.)

Why I am asking ? Simply because I happen to have "perfect" pics of their headstones. Perfect in this case = the way I want them to be. With the sun in the ideal position. For I ... "dislike" taking headstone pics in Bard Cottage Cem. Because the headstones there are Hopton Wood, with inscriptions not easy to read, because they are carved less deep etc.

If so, just let me know. I can send the two, by email preferably.

Aurel

[Mark Hone]

Aurel, unfortunately, the two are not among the ones you have photographed. They are:

Sergeant John Evan Williams died 15/6/17 and Private Robert John Williams, died 20/7/17. There are a lot of people called Williams in the area!

Your offer is much appreciated and thank you for all of the help you have given me in my researches for battlefield tours over the years. 

Edited 22 September , 2023 by Mark Hone

[Ian Riley]

16 minutes ago, Aurel Sercu said:

Mark,

Your two Conway War Mem. men, are they among these seven ?

<SNIP>

(Sorry I have not taken the time to find what Bn. these men were in.)

Why I am asking ? Simply because I happen to have "perfect" pics of their headstones. Perfect in this case = the way I want them to be. With the sun in the ideal position. For I ... "dislike" taking headstone pics in Bard Cottage Cem. Because the headstones there are Hopton Wood, with inscriptions not easy to read, because they are carved less deep etc.

If so, just let me know. I can send the two, by email preferably.

Aurel

Aurel, That is amazing attention to detail and an illustration of your astonishing breadth of local knowledge Ian 

[Aurel Sercu]

Mark (and Ian),

Anyway, I have written down the two names, just in case ... I mean : the best time IIRC is about 10 or 11 a.m. (if the sun is shining). I pass by there quite often, but it's always in the afternoon, when the sun has already moved to behind the headstones ...

Aurel

 

[Aurel Sercu]

Mark,

You wrote : Private Robert John Williams, died 20/7/17.

CWGC gives 23 July. A detail, I know. But I can let you know why I ask.

Can you let me know what your e-mail address is, please, in a PM ? (I can't find it anymore in my addresses.)

Aurel

[Mark Hone]

Aurel, 

I think that it is simply a misprint on the website which lists the men from Conwy who died in the Great War. It consists basically of transcriptions of CWGC entries for the soldiers involved. I used information from that rather than the CWGC original when I made my initial post. 

Mark

 

[Mark Hone]

Just to report that I visited Klein Zwaanhof and Yorkshire Trench, in addition to Bard Cottage Cemetery,  as part of my visit to Ieper last week. I thought that the little visitor centre was very good and the film shown there was generally clear and visually extremely impressive. The walk from Klein Zwaanhof to Yorkshire Trench was not exactly the most scenic I've undertaken, but interesting, and walking past the waste management plant had parallels with the film's description of some of the early trenches being dug amongst farmers' dung heaps! I'm not sure what had really changed at Yorkshire Trench since my visit in April but it had visitors, notably a school group from West Yorkshire who were having their lunch break there. 

Talking of school groups, my impression was that the number of parties touring the Salient was back to pre-Pandemic levels. Last year, when I led my final school Battlefields Tour on the equivalent weekend, there seemed to be fewer other groups in the area than previously, but there was very healthy attendance by (well-behaved) British school parties at the Last Post Ceremony in front of the Menin Gate this time. 

Edited 27 October , 2023 by Mark Hone

[AOK4]

3 minutes ago, Mark Hone said:

Talking of school groups, my impression was that the number of parties touring the Salient was back to pre-Pandemic levels. Last year, when I led my final school Battlefields Tour on the equivalent weekend, there seemed to be fewer other groups in the area than previously, but there was very healthy attendance by (well-behaved) British school  parties at the Last Post Ceremony in front of the Menin Gate this time. 

I was in and around Ypres last Monday and noticed that there were more tourists and school groups than during some previous visits. I don't know whether they were all British though, but at least some were.

[Mark Hone]

The majority I saw going around the Salient were British and we met several family groups, as well as school parties, touring the battlefields. I also saw Australians, Canadians and several Americans. At one restaurant we went to, the other diners all seemed to be from across the Atlantic! 

Edited 27 October , 2023 by Mark Hone

[Loopgraaf]

I read on several Belgium sites (in Dutch) that tourism is coming back after the covid19 years. 

About few weeks I see it myself if there are more tourists than last two years and also if it is like before corona. 

[Ian Riley]

4 hours ago, Mark Hone said:

Just to report that I visited Klein Zwaanhof and Yorkshire Trench, in addition to Bard Cottage Cemetery,  as part of my visit to Ieper last week. I thought that the little visitor centre was very good and the film shown there was generally clear and visually extremely impressive. The walk from Klein Zwaanhof to Yorkshire Trench was not exactly the most scenic I've undertaken, but interesting, and walking past the waste management plant had parallels with the film's description of some of the early trenches being dug amongst farmers' dung heaps! I'm not sure what had really changed at Yorkshire Trench since my visit in April but it had visitors, notably a school group from West Yorkshire who were having their lunch break there. 

Talking of school groups, my impression was that the number of parties touring the Salient was back to pre-Pandemic levels. Last year, when I led my final school Battlefields Tour on the equivalent weekend, there seemed to be fewer other groups in the area than previously, but there was very healthy attendance by (well-behaved) British school parties at the Last Post Ceremony in front of the Menin Gate this time. 

Thanks, Mark. '.... not exactly the most scenic' ranks as understatement of the day! We had to go to the Kenniscentrum for detailed instruction having n=been fooled by the ;Info 250 metres' sign pointing down the road rather than across the road. Ian

[Aurel Sercu]

Ian and Mark,

True, the path connecting the Klein Zwaanhof and the Yorkshire Trench & Dug-out is not really "scenic" ... Towers of car wrecks, a frightening wall of huge concrete blocks with barbed wire ... The tall iron wire fence ... And the path indeed may be difficult to find, due to lack of signposts .... But after all these years (20) I have got used to it. (And during most of my local bike rides in the area I include that narrow path, as I ... 'love it' , making me feel a little like Wout Van Aert etc. in a cyclocross race.  :-)  And of course I always hope not to face oncoming 'traffic'. A sort of fear Wout Van Aert never has to face during a race ...)

When I remember how the area looked like in the early 1990s (and before) ... Most of it bumpy grassland .... No industry plant in sight ... Only the Ypres and Boezinge 'skyline' and the trees lining the canal. Sometimes I wish you should have seen that. (Or may you should not as the present scenery would be too painful to see  ...)

The Yorkshire Trench and Dug-out site .... In my opinion the restoration of a some months ago is not really impressive ... The two entrances renewed and new sandbags near the entrances ... But that was necessary. The restoration of the rest of the trench may be urgent too. But that will be for later, I was told. When there will be more money (again) ...

Aurel

 

[Ian Riley]

56 minutes ago, Aurel Sercu said:

Ian and Mark,

True, the path connecting the Klein Zwaanhof and the Yorkshire Trench & Dug-out is not really "scenic" ... Towers of car wrecks, a frightening wall of huge concrete blocks with barbed wire ... The tall iron wire fence ... And the path indeed may be difficult to find, due to lack of signposts .... But after all these years (20) I have got used to it. (And during most of my local bike rides in the area I include that narrow path, as I ... 'love it' , making me feel a little like Wout Van Aert etc. in a cyclocross race.  :-)  And of course I always hope not to face oncoming 'traffic'. A sort of fear Wout Van Aert never has to face during a race ...)

When I remember how the area looked like in the early 1990s (and before) ... Most of it bumpy grassland .... No industry plant in sight ... Only the Ypres and Boezinge 'skyline' and the trees lining the canal. Sometimes I wish you should have seen that. (Or may you should not as the present scenery would be too painful to see  ...)

The Yorkshire Trench and Dug-out site .... In my opinion the restoration of a some months ago is not really impressive ... The two entrances renewed and new sandbags near the entrances ... But that was necessary. The restoration of the rest of the trench may be urgent too. But that will be for later, I was told. When there will be more money (again) ...

Aurel

 

Aurel, thanks so much for these comments - master of the well-constructed sentence in English and doubtless in Dutch. 'To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive' (Robert Louis Stevenson) but in this case arrival at Klein Zwaanhof was rather better than the journey from Yorkshire Trench (at least in my opinion)

Ian

[Sapper D.]

On the cards to attend the remembrance on the 10th of November. Hope the weather behaves itself! 

 

[Mark Hone]

A BBC News report on one man's fund raising to help preserve Yorkshire Trench.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-leeds-67384976

[Loopgraaf]

In 2003 i was there for the first time and visit the trench several times since than.

Also last weekend. I must say, it looks good now. But i have one thing that bother me. The trees in front of the trench. They have to move. Because from the trench, when you look little bit left and look to the blue industrial building, that is almost the line of the German trenchsite. This is nice to imagine how close both sides fought with each other (some trenches are closer than this). I told few Dutch visitors this and they were shocked and surprised how close.

So, cut the trees and show how far the other trench was.

Further. Keep on the good work with this trench. Because it is a nice piece of history to visit.

[Aurel Sercu]

Loopgraaf, I understand your point of view ... Yet, I remember that when we The Diggers) had finished the restauration job, in 2003, and when the site was inaugurated (25 May 2003), the trees were still very small (I'm not even sure they had already been planted at the time - see photo - unless only as very tiny twiglets, that some visitors 'complained' and regretted that "these ugly industrial plants" spoiled the view. (And they were right too.)

By the way, I guess the blue industrial buildings you mention, are in the (extreme) left part of the photo. And I never fail to mention, when being there with vistors, that indeed that is where the first German line was. And that indeed was 'shockingly' near ... (And in reality the line was even nearer, for the photo was taken with a mild wide angle) ...

But as you suggest, this proximity maybe should have been made more visible and illustrated with (aerial or other) photos, on a panel.

There are other things that bother me (a little), as the cartoonlike figures of the soldiers on one of the panels, near the entrance. "Nice" work, but life in the dug-out sure was not fun.

[Loopgraaf]

The cartoon Dug-Out board, i almost forget that sign. Yes, it looks like a cartoon for children. If it is for them, than is it okay, but give than also a more serious board with information.

What you, Aurel Sercu, said, pictures of WW1 from that frontline, that should be nice.

[Aurel Sercu]

But I forgot to add that the cartoonesk board gives an excellent idea of how it looked like 10 meters below the surface in 1916-1917. And that in the Ypres IFFM there is a very good 3D scale model, in that glass cabinet. And that having been there deep down twice (Febr. 1992 and again in the summer of 2001) is unforgettable. A time machine like experience, with WW1 frozen in time. But ... less dangerous.

As to WW1 pics of the area, apart from aerial photos, in all these years I have only found a few ...