Tank Corps HQ war diary (Appendix)

[stevew]

Hi has anyone got a copy of the appendix, although I am beginning to think there may not be one for the tanks at the Messines on 7 June 17.  I am particularly after the movements for 'B' Battalion.  I have checked both the relevant diaries (HQ and 2nd Battalion) but they don't show much.  The 'B' Battalion diary does mention an appendix but it doesn't appear to be attached the diary

[delta]

The type written copy at the Tank Museum states that

Detail of Operations see Appx E1, company commanders reports. [missing]

[stevew]

Thanks Delta, as I suspected, but always possible, in my probable that I overlooked something 

[johntaylor]

Hi, I'm not an expert on Messines so may be giving you a bum steer, but this list in the Tank Corps HQ War Diary seems to relate to B Bn at Messines. It's currently free to download from the NA website: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/01685dcf79be45e49c7029acb22d386d 

I'm not sure if this is what you need, but unfortunately there's no sign of company commanders' reports. You could also try the War Diaries for 2nd Tank Brigade HQ if you haven't already done so.

John

[stevew]

14 hours ago, johntaylor said:

Hi, I'm not an expert on Messines so may be giving you a bum steer, but this list in the Tank Corps HQ War Diary seems to relate to B Bn at Messines. It's currently free to download from the NA website: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/01685dcf79be45e49c7029acb22d386d 

I'm not sure if this is what you need, but unfortunately there's no sign of company commanders' reports. You could also try the War Diaries for 2nd Tank Brigade HQ if you haven't already done so.

John

 

Hi John,

It does help and I had glossed over this before for some reason, but on closer inspection I see it does provide some information, it's a starting point.

[johntaylor]

I'm glad this is useful. Having looked at B Bn's War Diary, I have to say there is a lot of information in the appendices here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/08b78ca9185b406e9841c2e12e3c0970

The battalion's War History is also pretty good on Messines: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/01762f1844a34efda65e0e8664807456

In my experience you'll be lucky to find much more detailed information about an action in any of the Tank Corps records. It's true there are no Battle History Sheets (which are very rare), but some of them are summarised in the handwritten company commanders' reports which are in the appendices above. The map is about as good as you'll get:

I'm not sure what further information you might be able to find, other than the Battle History Sheets which are few and far between.

All the best,

John

 

 

[stevew]

1 hour ago, johntaylor said:

I'm glad this is useful. Having looked at B Bn's War Diary, I have to say there is a lot of information in the appendices here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/08b78ca9185b406e9841c2e12e3c0970

The battalion's War History is also pretty good on Messines: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/01762f1844a34efda65e0e8664807456

 

I'm not sure what further information you might be able to find, other than the Battle History Sheets which are few and far between.

All the best,

John

 

 

Thanks again John.  I hadn't seen these files from TNA.  They are helpful.  I have a tour next month and if I can fir it I visit La Plus Douve Farm.  There is a 'B' Battalion guy buried here.  I have a bit of story to tell would just like to add some other details, which will be hard.  He was probably in one of the ditched tanks and got hit by enemy fire outside the tank

Steve

[johntaylor]

Hi, I'm glad these documents were helpful and good luck with trying to link your man to a particular tank. This is often impossible unless you can find one of the following:

• A crew list (a few have survived, e.g. in personal papers of senior officers in the Tank Museum etc.)
• Documents in the possession of the soldier's family - they may have kept photos or documents which give a clue, including in some cases the letters of condolence written by the dead man's CO.
• An article in a local paper (or school magazine etc.) - these sometimes quote the letters of condolence and may contain an officer's name.

In the case of B Bn, you could check the personal papers of Lieut-Col Henshall in the Imperial War Museum - he was a company commander in the battalion and kept a fantastic amount of material, and I believe he'd joined them by the time of Messines: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1030013643

I take it you've seen the book Veteran Volunteer which quotes from the papers of Frank Vans Agnew and contains a short section on Messines: https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Veteran-Volunteer-Hardback/p/6107

All the best

John

[JeffMcN]

"Unidentified New Zealanders watching the tanks advancing towards Messines Ridge in Belgium, during the attack of 7 June 1917." Australian War Memorial (E01417). I got a high resolution version and from it determined that the New Zealanders are Maoris of the Pioneer Battalion; the tanks are of 5th Company 'B' Battalion, B27 (2nd Lieutenant Hoyland) is closest. They are heading off to support the 4th Australian Division's afternoon advance on the Green Line. I write about them in my recent book, Jeff McNeill 'Taking the Ridge: Anzacs & Germans at the Battle of Messines 1917' www.riflemanpress.nz which has yet to have any European spruiking!  The book also has an aerial photo of this company struggling up the ridge slope towards the Ypres road.

[JeffMcN]

I would have to add that Veteran Volunteer: Memoir of the Trenches, tanks and captivity by Frank Vans Agnew, and edited by his grandson Jamie Vans and Peter Widdowson is a cracking read. Those tankmen were really quite something and Frank was of tougher stuff than the armour on his tank. His account of saving his tank, 'Rumblebelly', No.5 Company, 'B' Battalion, at Messines is the ultimate in sang-froid: he credits his survival to bad Bavarian shooting, not withstanding getting a bullet through an arm muscle and another grazing his rib! And it would brilliantly colour a battle-field excursion talk.

[JeffMcN]

No.4 Company planned movement for the morning of 7 June to support the New Zealand Division attack on Messines. Who knows where the tanks actually went. One on each flank certainly got up to the Black Line; another ran out of petrol at the western edge of Messines (who knows where it went before then). Another was hit by any artillery shell and burnt out with 6 men inside on the Wulverghem road right on the old front line (which might give you a clue as where to find your man, though as most men here have no formal burial, could be a long shot).

The New Zealanders were not too impressed with the tanks: one soldier reckoned he could win a race one pulling a grass-roller. One chewed up the battalion command post's telephone lines and nearly flattened the post in the process. Their commanders were also concerned that their noise would alert the Germans to the impending attack. The 4th Australians hated and distrusted them before the battle, having been badly let down at Bullecourt, but seem to have appreciated them on the day. 

 

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