Boys in Arms what unit? Help identify, please!

[aodhdubh]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

All interesting points.  I did not know that about the Brecon course connection with a Bermudian officer, although I was serving at the time and recall the transition from Parachute Regiment battle school to the infantry platoon sergeants and then section commanders battle course.

It would’ve been entirely normal for Bermuda forces to have had Boy entrants, it’s often overlooked that they were recruited in the same small numbers by all elements of Britain’s armed forces, regular, militia and volunteers.  Almost forgotten now, but the Royal Navy relied upon Boy entry on a much greater scale, with the vast majority of ratings commencing their service in that way.  As regards the Army, the Royal Artillery (as so often with organisational changes) were the first arm to establish centralised training depots/schools for boys and were so successful that the rest of the Army gradually emulated them, albeit with the infantry the last to fall into line.

There's a curious connection to education of children running through the various threads here, even where not intended. My primary school in Bermuda is named Gilbert Institute (unfortunately faced with closure at the moment), completed in 1933 in what had previously been a Royal Engineers Quarry connected with the construction of the (South Shore) Military Road. The Gilbert family has been in Bermuda since the 1600s (the aforementioned Christ Church, Church of Scotland, in 1719 in Warwick Parish - the oldest Presbyterian church outside the British Isles - was built on land donated by Thomas Gilbert), but the particular family member it is named for is Major Charles Gray Gosling Gilbert, OBE, MC, who was at university in England when the First World War began. Like many university students, he left his studies to take a commission, serving in the Machine Gun Gorps. After the war he and the other veterans who had left their studies were quickly ushered through completion of their degrees. He married while he was in England and his first son, Glyn Charles Anglim Gilbert, was born there, before returning to Bermuda where two other sons were born to head the Colony's education department from 1924 to 1956. His oldest son, Glyn, was commissioned in 1939 into the Lincolnshire Regiment, which the Bermuda Volunteer Rifle Corps overseas service contingents had served with on the Western Front during the first World War, and which had taken on a similar relationship to the BVRC between the wars as its regular battalions had with its TA battalions. The BVRC would send two contingents to serve with the Lincolnshire Regiment during the Second World War, also (in 1940 and 1944). GCA Gilbert was a Major in the 2nd Battalion of the Lincolnshire Regiment by the end of the Second World War, but afterwards moved to the Parachute Regiment before working his way up to Major-General (the second Bermudian Major-General I know of...the first, a First world war veteran, was curiously his cousin), in Command of the 3rd Infantry Division. One of his younger brothers became a school teacher in Bermuda. I'm not sure what career the third one followed, but I believe he was a National Serviceman in the Royal Navy after the Second World War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyn_Gilbert

 

The photograph below is the father, Major Charles Gray Gosling Gilbert, OBE, MC, serving in the Machine Gun Corps during the First World War.

Edited 12 July , 2022 by aodhdubh

[FROGSMILE]

Very interesting stuff.  You’ve made me feel that I’d like to visit Bermuda, I would be fascinated to see the old fortifications, etc.

Edited 12 July , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Very interesting stuff.  You’ve made me feel that I’d like to visit Bermuda, I would be fascinated to see the old fortifications, etc.

There are many...unfortunately, not so well preserved as I'd like.

[aodhdubh]

I have a suspicion that the CLB (CL&GB) and BB (and GB) have all merged into a single organisation in Bermuda, looking at the photographs in this article.

 

https://bernews.com/2017/06/church-girls-brigade-celebrate-25th-anniversary/

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, aodhdubh said:

I have a suspicion that the CLB (CL&GB) and BB (and GB) have all merged into a single organisation in Bermuda, looking at the photographs in this article.

 

https://bernews.com/2017/06/church-girls-brigade-celebrate-25th-anniversary/

I think that’s the same as happened in the U.K.  Wasn’t it mentioned earlier in the thread?

[aodhdubh]

13 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think that’s the same as happened in the U.K.  Wasn’t it mentioned earlier in the thread?

I do not think so, but perhaps in one of the other threads you linked?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, aodhdubh said:

I do not think so, but perhaps in one of the other threads you linked?

Possibly yes, I certainly read it as part of the process examining this subject.  I also stumbled on the enclosed images that I thought you might find of interest given the connection you mentioned between Newfoundland and Bermuda.  The first photo showing the family group includes a younger son in the Newfoundland Church Lads Brigade.  In the second photo he appears with his father shortly after enlisting with the Royal Newfoundland Regiment.  It was notable too that Newfoundland troops did not wear Canadian pattern uniform (even at home) because they were not a part of the confederation, having opted not to join Canada, although they did so later, between the wars.  The young lads name was Melville Russell and he was subsequently KIA in November 1917.  His father was a Frontiersman, which might interest @SteveE. I was intrigued to see the father wearing universal grenade collar badges.  Clearly nothing to do with the Royal Fusiliers, but interesting nonetheless.

Edited 15 July , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[SteveE]

@FROGSMILE said "I’ve just noticed that in the other thread photo showing the Frontiersman father wearing a peaked cap with cursive LG insignia, that above the cypher is a small brass gun not dissimilar to that worn above RA SNCO stripes.  When seen alongside the universal grenade collar badges it implies some form of Frontiersmen artillery unit.  Have you ever heard of them having any artillery (very probably of ‘horse’ type)?"

As far as I'm aware the Legion of Frontiersmen didn't have their own artillery unit, horse drawn or otherwise...  However, I have found, courtesy of Barry Shandro (a Frontiersmen Historian), that the Newfoundland Command did supply men on Home Defence Artillery duty. at St. John’s, as part of the armed forces there.  Under the command of the Royal Navy Reserve, (Legion) Lieutenant E. W. Vere-Holloway, with Sgt. Russell (he of the photo above) and remaining Frontiersmen gunners manned the naval gun protecting the entrance to St. John’s harbour.

Steve

 

Edited 18 July , 2022 by SteveE
Additional content

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, SteveE said:

@FROGSMILE said "I’ve just noticed that in the other thread photo showing the Frontiersman father wearing a peaked cap with cursive LG insignia, that above the cypher is a small brass gun not dissimilar to that worn above RA SNCO stripes.  When seen alongside the universal grenade collar badges it implies some form of Frontiersmen artillery unit.  Have you ever heard of them having any artillery (very probably of ‘horse’ type)?"

As far as I'm aware the Legion of Frontiersmen didn't have their own artillery unit, horse drawn or otherwise...  However, I have found, courtesy of Barry Shandro (a Frontiersmen Historian), that the Newfoundland Command did supply men on Home Defence Artillery duty. at St. John’s, as part of the armed forces there.  Under the command of the Royal Navy Reserve, (Legion) Lieutenant E. W. Vere-Holloway, with Sgt. Russell (he of the photo above) and remaining Frontiersmen gunners manned the naval gun protecting the entrance to St. John’s harbour.

Steve

 

Brilliant stuff Steve, you’ve solved it.  How interesting that they went to the lengths of finding insignia for the men so trained.

[aodhdubh]

On 15/07/2022 at 12:36, FROGSMILE said:

Possibly yes, I certainly read it as part of the process examining this subject.  I also stumbled on the enclosed images that I thought you might find of interest given the connection you mentioned between Newfoundland and Bermuda.  The first photo showing the family group includes a younger son in the Newfoundland Church Lads Brigade.  In the second photo he appears with his father shortly after enlisting with the Royal Newfoundland Regiment.  It was notable too that Newfoundland troops did not wear Canadian pattern uniform (even at home) because they were not a part of the confederation, having opted not to join Canada, although they did so later, between the wars.  The young lads name was Melville Russell and he was subsequently KIA in November 1917.  His father was a Frontiersman, which might interest @SteveE. I was intrigued to see the father wearing universal grenade collar badges.  Clearly nothing to do with the Royal Fusiliers, but interesting nonetheless.

Thank you very much. I have had a Frontiersmen cap badge in my collection since I was an adolescent, but know little of them. I would have thought the grenade collar badges with a "CF" cap badge (if that's what I'm seeing...my eyes are quite rubbish, even with reading glasses) might indicate "Canadian Fusiliers", though the cap badge looks like a shoulder title worn as a cap badge? Although Newfoundland, of course, was not Canada...

Edited 19 July , 2022 by aodhdubh

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, aodhdubh said:

Thank you very much. I have had a Frontiersmen cap badge in my collection since I was an adolescent, but know little of them. I would have thought the grenade collar badges with a "CF" cap badge (if that's what I'm seeing...my eyes are quite rubbish, even with reading glasses) might indicate "Canadian Fusiliers", though the cap badge looks like a shoulder title worn as a cap badge? Although Newfoundland, of course, was not Canada...

Forum member SteveE has been able to identify that the universal grenade collar badges and the tiny gun insignia seen atop the peaked cap in the second photo relate to a short period when some personnel of the Newfoundland Frontiersmen provided auxiliary gunners for the coastal defence artillery of St John’s furnished apparently by the Royal Navy.

Edited 19 July , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Forum member SteveE has been able to identify that the universal grenade collar badges and the tiny gun insignia seen atop the peaked cap in the second photo relate to a short period when some personnel of the Newfoundland Frontiersmen provided auxiliary gunners for the coastal defence artillery of St John’s furnished apparently by the Royal Navy.

Fitting...the Royal Navy has much to do with the history of Newfoundland...permanent settlement of which was long delayed, of course, in order to prevent British Isles-based fishermen permanently relocating there due to the navy's reliance upon them as a ready manpower reserve to draw upon in wartime.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, aodhdubh said:

Fitting...the Royal Navy has much to do with the history of Newfoundland...permanent settlement of which was long delayed, of course, in order to prevent British Isles-based fishermen permanently relocating there due to the navy's reliance upon them as a ready manpower reserve to draw upon in wartime.

Interesting, I did not know of the intent to discourage the settlement of fishermen.

[BraddockBrigade]

On 14/07/2022 at 19:25, aodhdubh said:

I have a suspicion that the CLB (CL&GB) and BB (and GB) have all merged into a single organisation in Bermuda, looking at the photographs in this article.

 

https://bernews.com/2017/06/church-girls-brigade-celebrate-25th-anniversary/

 

[BraddockBrigade]

Hi, I have just joined this Forum and just seen this post.

The Church Lads’ & Church Girls’ Brigade and the Boys’ Brigade / Girls’ Brigade remain separate organisations. In Bermuda, there is a Boys’ Brigade unit and a CLCGB unit that caters for the girls.

[BraddockBrigade]

Hi, these are members of the Church Lads’ Brigade marching to a Royal Review in London.

[FROGSMILE]

On 23/10/2023 at 09:30, BraddockBrigade said:

Hi, I have just joined this Forum and just seen this post.

The Church Lads’ & Church Girls’ Brigade and the Boys’ Brigade / Girls’ Brigade remain separate organisations. In Bermuda, there is a Boys’ Brigade unit and a CLCGB unit that caters for the girls.

I think you will find that @aodhdubh is well aware of that aspect as he has posted on that and other Bermudan matters extensively.

[BraddockBrigade]

Thank you but I thought that the original image query would have been updated to answer the question about the identification of the ‘unit’.

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, BraddockBrigade said:

Thank you but I thought that the original image query would have been updated to answer the question about the identification of the ‘unit’.

You normally have to follow the thread through in its entirety and read all of it to understand where matters reached.  Otherwise it runs the risk of each new reader perhaps reading the opening inquiry alone, and then repeating an answer that’s already been given. 

Edited 31 March by FROGSMILE

[BraddockBrigade]

Many thanks for your explanation.

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, BraddockBrigade said:

Many thanks for your explanation.

I’m sure that @aodhdubh will respond to you directly in due course as I know he was researching the Bermudan uniformed youth organisations and so will be interested in your information.  This thread contains an extraordinary amount of Bermudan historical detail now, so I’m sure it will become a go to source for a roundup of the military and naval history there.

[aodhdubh]

19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m sure that @aodhdubh will respond to you directly in due course as I know he was researching the Bermudan uniformed youth organisations and so will be interested in your information.  This thread contains an extraordinary amount of Bermudan historical detail now, so I’m sure it will become a go to source for a roundup of the military and naval history there.

Two of my brothers and I were in the Boys Brigade, at St. Paul's COE, in Paget, Bermuda in the latter 1970s (despite our being Roman Catholic, with our extended family all Catholic, Presbyterian or Wesleyan Methodist). My nephew more recently was in the Boys brigade there, also. I have no recollection of a Church Lads' Brigade (or Church Girls Brigade) at the time, though the organisation is shown as still operating in Bermuda today, according to its website (listed as a 'foreign' unit, despite Bermuda being British: https://clcgb.org.uk/index.php/57-doc ).

 

Looking through the Royal Gazette archives (the newspaper has its archives online from the early 1990s to the present), only seven articles mention the organisation in that time span, three (including two obituaries) concerning the former Governor and military Commander in Chief of Bermuda, Lieutenant-General Sir Desmond Langley (whom I 'chatted' with when I was in a Potential NCO Cadre in 1992, with the Cadre, myself included, providing the Honour Guard when he ended his term in those offices), who was actually also the head of the CL&CGB (https://www.royalgazette.com/other/news/article/20110208/sir-desmond-reflects-on-his-four-years-here/), two articles concerning aging men who had been in the CLB in their youths (both being Seventh-Day Adventists who must originally have been Church of England), one of whom had also served in the Bermuda Militia Artillery, though not during the Great war, obviously (Ivor Reid Jr. https://www.royalgazette.com/other/news/article/20110210/he-was-an-authentic-bermudian-gentleman/ ; and Joseph Lambert https://www.royalgazette.com/other/lifestyle/article/20191217/golf-has-been-a-big-hit-in-life/), and the last being a history of St. Monica's Sunday School, mentioning the organisation in the 1920s. https://www.royalgazette.com/religion/lifestyle/article/20110205/sunday-school-celebrates-its-century/

 

There is a hole in the online archives of the royal Gazette from 1971 to about 1991 as the Bermuda library has not scanned and uploaded the interveining years as yet. The last mention I have found prior to the 1990s, and the last mention of the organisation still being extant in Bermuda at the time of publication, is from 1971, with the organisation included in the Church of England entry on the attached page of the Royal Gazette. The history of the organisation in Bermuda during the subsequent years I have yet to research.

 

Returning to the history of the organisation during the First World War, I just surfed across this link: https://www.heritagefund.org.uk/news/tragic-sacrifice-church-lads-first-world-war-revealed

Edited 1 April by aodhdubh