French helmet puzzle

[michaeldr]

 

The naval museum at Çanakkale [Çanakkale Deniz Müzesi Komutanliği] is well worth a visit and if time allows then one should be certain to include the art gallery. Currently (visited in May 2022) they have a fine display of the works of Lieutenant Mehmet Ali Laga, who was appointed one of the military painters of the Çanakkale battles. Lt Ali worked for the Çanakkale Fortified Area Command from 1914 until the end of the war. His work provides a valuable insight and record of many different aspects of this battlefront between 1915 and 1918.

One of Lt. Ali's pieces is however, proving a bit of a puzzle. It is a described in the catalogue as follows:

“Charcoal painting, a French artillery calpac. On the lower left hand corner the signature of the artist 'M. Ali' and below 'A French Artillery Calpac taken from a Prisoner in Seddubahir, 1915' are inscribed in Ottoman Turkish. The drawing is 27 x 37 cm.”

From whom was this helmet taken?

It has been identified as being a 'Dragoon' piece, rather than 'Artillery,' however, there were no French dragoons at Helles.

If it was in fact taken from an artilleryman, then where/when was he captured?

Can anyone think of a French artillery position which was over-run?

Or a French artillery forward observation post which was captured?

 

Thanks in advance for any help offered here.

Michael

Edited 3 July , 2022 by michaeldr

[Keith_history_buff]

No French artillerymen were identified as being taken prisoner. There were five engineers taken prisoner, and it could make sense they were still wearing body armour, ceremonial or otherwise. It seems strange this was in the possession of a prisoner. The elaborate horsehair plume and shining metal are great for a 14 July parade, but not practical for a battlefield in 1915.

The translated choice of word for the head-dress is wrong. I'd expect a kolpak to be a hussar's fur headdress and not a helmet.

Helmets, albeit more akin to that of the Bavarian Army's raupenhelm rather than the dragoon style, were under consideration in 1912 for adoption by the French Army, as illustrated by Edouard Detaille.

[stevenbecker]

Michael,

There were a number of great artist painting, some these I have;

Sanatçi    artist    Ercument Kalmik    unknown        famous painter
Yüzbasi     Capt    Hasan Fehmi Efendi     39th Regt    WIA 1915 at Gallipoli    grandfather of Turkish painter Korkut Ulug
Mülazim-i / Tegmen / Üstegmen    Lt    Hayri Çizel (Hasan Hayrettin) AKA Hayri Cizer Efendi    unknown        famous painter born in Dimetoka Adrianople participated in Gallipoli Front of the Great War as a reserve officer died in 1950 painted many war time scenes 
Mülazim-i / Tegmen / Üstegmen    Lt    Mehmet Ali Laga    Artist Çanakkale Fortified Area Command         one of the military painters of the Çanakkale battles
Sanatçi    artist    Sami Yetik     unknown        famous painter
Sanatçi    artist    Sermet Muhtar     unknown        famous painter
Süvari Binbasi    Maj Cav    Tahsin (Diyarbakirli)    unknown        famous painter / artist (born Diyarbakir 1874- died Istanbul 1937)  Graduated from War School as Cavalry Lt in 1895 studied art at the gallery of Artist Prof. Hoca Ali Riza Bey in Istanbul
 

While it appears to be a French Dragoon helmet of the 1872 type, how did it get to Galipoli?

I am not that sure about the French Army here, but there were two Met Bdes, one in each Division while the others were colonial so less likely to have one?

There were a number of Batteries at Division and Corps level, so that's also possible

I see no cavalry in the books unless I missed them?

So we are left with a Cavalry officer or soldier possibly of Staff at HQ or with the Artillery?

As to the helmet, during the war they worn a felt cover over the metal, so the shinny metal thing is a no brainer, also the ones I ve seen had the hair/plumes removed

S.B

Edited 3 July , 2022 by stevenbecker

[michaeldr]

Keith & Steve, many thanks for your replies

Keith, re the gallery catalogue wording: your definition of calpac agrees with that found in Duckett's 'Technological Military Dictionary' ie Kolbak/Kolpak/Colpak = busby-cap, fur-cap etc. I also think that in English the expression charcoal drawing would be more usual than their 'charcoal painting.' However, as my own language skills are next to zero, I am reluctant to throw stones.

Your information about the French PoWs 

19 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

No French artillerymen were identified as being taken prisoner. There were five engineers taken prisoner

is very useful indeed. I have no experience in this particular field and wonder what other information is available in the listings which you have accessed? If the names of the engineers and their date & place of capture are available that would be most helpful. With a name it may be possible (?) to trace a previous military record and perhaps pin-point service where a dragoon's helmet was acquired.

[Keith_history_buff]

Here's the five engineers, and an associated ICRC reference

R5781,LEFORT,Maurice,1. Rgt. de génie 4ème bat. 26-Apr-1915
R6411,BARRIER,Victor,1er Rgt. génie 4/14 26-Apr-1915
R6412,DREAU,François,1er Rgt. génie 4/14
R6414,MARLAIX,Léon,1er Rgt. Génie 4/14 26-Apr-1915
R6416,VICTOR,Emile,1er Rgt. Génie 4/14 26-Apr-1915

It appears they were captured at the same time. 

[michaeldr]

Brilliant Keith; Many Thanks! First impressions; this looks like the action at Kum Kale

I'll report back after the follow-up

Thanks again, Michael

[michaeldr]

Just for a moment straying from the question of the 'Dragoon' helmet, the case of Lieutenant Lefort is interesting. See p.105 in the late Patrick Gariepy's book 'Gardens of Hell'

Edited 4 July , 2022 by michaeldr

[stevenbecker]

Michael,

You have to wonder here.

Who or was he a German officer?

I have seen no Germans lost with that Division that day, while a number of Germans were lost in Batteries.

Ottoman officers also did speak French and a number from the 31st Regt (3rd Div), who fought the French were lost that day

When you read allied accounts of the fighting on both sides of the straits, it appears the Germans were all over , or were they?

S.B

 

[michaeldr]

Steve,

The Germans were indeed, everywhere. For example, it is in this action at Kum Kale where Hptm. Rudolf Schierholz gained the Ritterkreuz of the Saxon Militär-St.Heinrichs-Orden [see https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/294385-captain-rudolf-schierholz-saxon-army-19141917/#comment-3067303]

Regarding the fate of the German officer referred to here; let us hope that indeed, “Nogués pacified the bloodthirsty Africans and the prisoners' lives were spared.”

…..............................................................................................................

 

I understand that the 4/14 company was in this case administered by the 2nd RG because they were outside France CEO [see https://forum.pages14-18.com/viewtopic.php?t=53525]

In the Historique de la Compagnie 4/14 du 2e Regiment du Genie there is a reference to Lt. Lefort and 3 Sappers* falling prisoners at Kum Kale.

The front cover of this Historique shows what I take to be the regimental badge, and we see there a helmet not unlike the one illustrated by Lt. Ali.  

Perhaps a connection???????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[* The fourth sapper-prisoner mentioned above, may or may not have been taken in this action (?) R6412, DREAU, François, (Private) 1er Rgt. Génie 4/14

DREAU François - né 1881, Orne - résident à Condé-s/Sarthe, Orne - 1er Génie 4/14
CICR, liste R-6412, 09-02-1916, transféré de Kianghéri et Afyonkarahisar au camp de Bilémedik
CICR, liste 100948, Gazette des Ardennes 20-10-1917 - prisonnier ou mort en Turquie, camp Bilémedik]

Edited 5 July , 2022 by michaeldr

[emrezmen]

Interesting, thanks for sharing. First time I have heard of it. Possibly captured during the attacks in early May or at Kumkale as suggested. 

On 05/07/2022 at 10:18, michaeldr said:

Regarding the fate of the German officer referred to here; let us hope that indeed, “Nogués pacified the bloodthirsty Africans and the prisoners' lives were spared.”

 

The CEO war diary mentions 9 prisoners (including so-called German officer), out of 60 were "immediately shot" in retaliation for Lefort and his men:

Note the officer was regarded as "Turc" as well. It is a well known fact that the Ottoman officers were often mistaken for Germans, especially when they were found to be good German speakers. I haven't seen any single reference to a German commanding an infantry unit below regiment at Gallipoli.

Edited 6 July , 2022 by emrezmen

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Yes its another of the myths that will not died.

Much like the MG question.

Why we keep seeing what its not there, you have to wonder.

These comments are all over Allied accounts from Gallipoli to the fighting in Egypt and Palestine

You only have to watch our movies, where Germans seam be all over.

I have been trying to kill the notion of Germans in the trench and batteries in and Charge at Beersheba and at 3rd Corps HQ  for some time. but that movie keeps being used?

S.B

[michaeldr]

The Golden Rule is that no rule is 100% water-proof; each case should be examined individually.

Were there Germans involved in the fighting on the Gallipoli peninsula or the Asiatic shore of the Dardanelles?

Well, a quick look at Col Klaus Wolf's book 'Victory at Gallipoli 1915' [ISBN 9781 1 52676 816 2] and his Appendix 2 in particular, shows that between the landings and the evacuation +/- 28 Germans died either on Gallipoli or the Asiatic shore of the Dardanelles.

Take a look at this photograph which was taken at Helles in 1915, 3 miles behind the front line. We've no proof whose grave is shown; none, one way or the other. However, I strongly suspect that no Entente casualty would be given a marker so similar in shape to an Iron Cross. If that casualty had been a German however.......

[michaeldr]

By the way, while we're talking about the allies of the Ottomans, let us not forget the contribution of Austria-Hungary

Quote:- “...it is relatively less known that around 7,000-12,000 troops from the Austro-Hungarian army fought on the Turkish fronts, mainly in Gallipoli and Sinai-Palestine until the very end of the war when the Armistice of Mudros was signed on 30 October 1918.”

from THE ROLE OF AUSTRO-HUNGARIAN ARTILLERY ON THE OTTOMAN FRONTS IN WWI by Emre Saral of Hacettepe University, Ankara, Turkey

[michaeldr]

On 06/07/2022 at 14:11, emrezmen said:

Note the officer was regarded as "Turc" as well. It is a well known fact that the Ottoman officers were often mistaken for Germans, especially when they were found to be good German speakers. I haven't seen any single reference to a German commanding an infantry unit below regiment at Gallipoli.

dragging this thread back to its original subject: 

Regarding Emrezmen's above post (6JULY2022 14:11) - I should have pointed out earlier, that in looking at Col. Wolf's book and its Appendix 2, I did not succeed in finding a German death with coincided with the French Landing at Kum Kale

regards,

Michael

Edited 15 July , 2022 by michaeldr

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

The photo may relate to those lost in March when a number were killed in the Artillery Battles or later in the fighting at Helles and Anzac after the MG group arrived

I always wondered in "German Officers Trench" was in fact named after a German officer, or was he a Ottoman Officer who was misidentified?

S.B