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uniform assistance


james drury

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Hi all 

just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on this uniform. 

I know the picture is not very clear and sadly the cap badge is turned away for the camera but are  there any clues  that may narrow down - I though may be the head gear ?

I know the mans name so any thoughts much appreciated. 

 

mms_img21019986211.jpg

mms_img-12049874941 copy.jpg

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With the mans name (and any other details such as date and place of birth) someone could try to look him up.

Meanwhile, has he got a badge on his right arm?

aim

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Looks to me to be what was called a 'Black and Tan' although he might be a member of the Auxiliary Officer Corps.  One of the forum experts on Ireland would be able to assist

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Black & Tans British SD jacket RIC Trousers. Auxiliaries Blue jacket and trousers.

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An interesting thought.  The photos I’ve examined of the government forces that wore mixed dress in Ireland seem to always show dark coloured bonnets.  I’ve only seen drab khaki bonnets on other ranks dressed in khaki from head to foot.  It’s also unclear if the nether-garment in the OP’s photo is dark green, or perhaps government tartan**, or Gordon tartan.  Given the drab khaki bonnet I think one of the latter is more likely.  The badge on his lower right sleeve might be a crown, although the shape isn’t 100% clear.  If it is a crown then clearly he’s a WOII sergeant major.  Seemingly not Black Watch though, as there’s no red hackle.  Another possibility might be a ‘Volunteer Battalion’ (ex Volunteer Training Corps) in the last two years of the war.

**e.g. in some forms of dress the Royal Scots and Royal Scots Fusiliers were still in dark hued government tartan at that time.  The uppermost photo below shows A&SH.  There were also TF units like the Glasgow Highlanders and 5th Seaforth Highlanders.

35FB1D78-6BE5-4C46-87D0-6BBF26D7D612.jpeg

DA8D9F56-74D2-4B87-B881-F447C10C3739.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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It would be interesting to see the whole photo which would then put him into context. He appears to be stood next to a man on his left wearing a cap. He does not seem to have any medal ribbons showing which might give a clue to date

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1 hour ago, butler said:

It would be interesting to see the whole photo which would then put him into context. He appears to be stood next to a man on his left wearing a cap. He does not seem to have any medal ribbons showing which might give a clue to date

Yes I agree that might help. 

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The other fellow appears to be Army Ordance Corps.  The apparent scenario makes it unlikely that it has anything to do with Black and Tans.

DEBB3CC6-9D2E-4938-BF46-6C7A1F615237.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Frogsmile, your'e right, I agree that it's unlikely to be anything to do with the black and tans and would go with your initial suggestion.

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7 hours ago, butler said:

Frogsmile, your'e right, I agree that it's unlikely to be anything to do with the black and tans and would go with your initial suggestion.

Yes it’s tantalising that we can only see the very edge of the badge on the bonnet.  On balance I think he’s probably either, Royal Scots, or Royal Scots Fusiliers, with the former as favourite going by the apparent shape of that slight hint of badge.  I wonder if the OP can add anything about who the men might be, or the circumstances of their portrait together?

Edited by FROGSMILE
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18 hours ago, aim said:

With the mans name (and any other details such as date and place of birth) someone could try to look him up.

@james drury -- any chance that you could post his name etc as previously asked by aim ?? -- someone is always willing to try and find details.

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8 minutes ago, james drury said:

around 1887 - still tracking the exact date, Willesden  Middlesex  

 

Was he Joseph Robert Brewster?

Surname  First name(s)    District  Vol  Page 

Births Sep 1887   (>99%)
Brewster  Joseph Robert    Hendon  3a 11[46]0  btnInfo.gif Scan available - click to view
Brewster  Joseph Robert    Hendon  3a 160  btnInfo.gif

 

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Father was Harry Brewster 1867  - Kilburn, Middlesex

Siblings  

Harry  1889 - 3rd Bttn Rifle Brigade - KIA 1914 

Albert 1896

Alfred  1899- Served in WW1 - ( yet to look into) 

Jennie 1895 

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It couldn't be a Highland Light Infantry  uniform could  it ?

Have found this pension index card to a Robert Brewster HLI formerly Middlesex 

The family are all from  Kilburn /  WIllesdon, Middlesex. 

The address on the Pension Index is for Kilburn ©Fold3

Looked up the number 29399 and it brought up a POW record for Robert Brewster a CSM in the HLI - could that be the badge on his arm - a crown ?

The address on the POW  entry is Granville Road Kilburn, the extended Brewster family all lived on Granville Road ©findmypast

Medal rolls have him Acting CSM 14th HLI 

Brewster, Robert (29399, 4779 (S R)).jpg

GBM_ICRC_C_G1_E_04_01_0123_0020 copy.jpg

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13 hours ago, james drury said:

It couldn't be a Highland Light Infantry  uniform could  it ?

Have found this pension index card to a Robert Brewster HLI formerly Middlesex 

The family are all from  Kilburn /  WIllesdon, Middlesex. 

The address on the Pension Index is for Kilburn ©Fold3

Looked up the number 29399 and it brought up a POW record for Robert Brewster a CSM in the HLI - could that be the badge on his arm - a crown ?

The address on the POW  entry is Granville Road Kilburn, the extended Brewster family all lived on Granville Road ©findmypast

Medal rolls have him Acting CSM 14th HLI 

Yes, it could be the 9th (Glasgow Highlanders) battalion of the HLI, who wore government tartan instead of the Mackenzie tartan worn by other battalions of the regiment.  Mackenzie is usually visible because of the white over lines, but your photo is very faded.
Although kilts were worn by the 9th battalion, towards the end of the war it wasn’t uncommon to see trews used by some battalion personnel, especially those working in roles outside the service companies, such as the transport section, and other battalion rear echelon functions.  He wears a WOII crown so it’s not impossible that he’s the RQMS, whose badge of rank did not change to a crown encircled by a laurel wreath until 1918.  The badge also fits for CSM.  I think it’s likely that you’ve found him.

NB.  If he was 14th Bn HLI I’d have expected him to be wearing Mackenzie trews (or plain SD, as per below - CSM at centre).  Perhaps he is wearing trews and it’s just that the photo is so faded that the white over lines are not discernible.

724EE425-58E0-4FBA-A04C-77841C6974F3.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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thank you all so much for all the useful info  - very much appreciated - I hadn't got the paper cutting so that's great  - thank you :-) 

I'm pretty sure this is the man now but ill keep digging around and see if anything else turns up 

once again thank you all :-)

 

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On 05/06/2022 at 07:48, james drury said:

Father was Harry Brewster 1867  - Kilburn, Middlesex

Siblings  

Harry  1889 - 3rd Bttn Rifle Brigade - KIA 1914 

Albert 1896

Alfred  1899- Served in WW1 - ( yet to look into) 

Jennie 1895 

 
 
Harry Brewster Father M 35 Willesden, Middlesex
Elizabeth Brewster
Mother F 36 Marylebone, London
Robert Brewster
Brother M 14 Willesden, Middlesex
Jennie Brewster
Sister F 6 Chelsea, London
Alfred Brewster
Brother M 2 Willesden, Middlesex
Albert Brewster
Brother M 5 Willesden, Middlesex

I'm assuming that this is the family in the 1901 England and Wales census. If so, then a search of the GRO indexes for Brewster births with those forenames suggests that Elizabeth Brewster's maiden name was Saville. That then leads to the following Brewster/Saville births registered in Hendon and Kensington.

BREWSTER, HARRY  SAMUEL  Mother's maiden name: SAVILLE  

GRO Reference: 1888  D Quarter in HENDON  Volume 03A  Page 198

BREWSTER, JOHN  JOSEPH  Mother's maiden name: SAVILLE  

GRO Reference: 1890  S Quarter in HENDON  Volume 03A  Page 193

BREWSTER, LILY  ELIZABETH  Mother's maiden name: SAVILLE  

GRO Reference: 1892  J Quarter in HENDON  Volume 03A  Page 201

BREWSTER, JANE  SARAH  Mother's maiden name: SAVILLE  

GRO Reference: 1895  M Quarter in KENSINGTON  Volume 01A  Page 140

BREWSTER, ALFRED    Mother's maiden name: SAVILLE  

GRO Reference: 1898  S Quarter in HENDON  Volume 03A  Page 204

BREWSTER, ALBERT  EDWARD  Mother's maiden name: SAVILLE  

GRO Reference: 1900  D Quarter in HENDON  Volume 03A  Page 226

You'll notice that Jane Sarah's birth was registered in Kensington, while the census states she was born in Chelsea. There are also two children who don't appear in the 1901 census, John Joseph, and Lily Elizabeth. I can't find an obvious death for John Joseph, but the death of a Lily Brewster aged 1 was registered in Kensington in the last quarter of 1895, which matches the birth of Jane being registered in the same district earlier in 1895.

BREWSTER, LILY    Age: 1  

GRO Reference: 1895  D Quarter in KENSINGTON  Volume 01A  Page 70

No obvious sign of a Robert Brewster being born around 1887 in Hendon, but there is the birth of a Robert Saville, no mother's maiden name, registered in the the same district in the first quarter of 1887. This suggests that Robert was born illegitimately, and his birth was registered under his mother's surname. This is confirmed by the 1911 England and Wales census, in which Harry Brewster senior states he has been married for 20 years, so after Robert's birth and in fact after Harry's and possibly John Joseph's as well if the figure of 20 years is correct.  

SAVILLE, ROBERT  SAMUEL  Mother's maiden name: -  

GRO Reference: 1887  M Quarter in HENDON  Volume 03A  Page 172

Edited by Tawhiri
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Thank you for all that amazing detail, yes the mothers maiden name Saville. 

I have  Robert Samuel baptised  5th January to Elizabeth Saville,  58 Kilburn Park Road, noted as single woman.

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