William Allan Rennie

[HerDowns]

Can anyone help identify this uniform please?  My grandfather, William Allan Rennie: b. Glasgow 9th March 1894.  He also later served in RN & was on a large ship bombed & sunk in Dardanelles.  Any advice on searching Scottish military records would be appreciated! Thank you.
 

Edited 2 June , 2022 by HerDowns
Adding name

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. I’ve split  your query into  a new thread. He is badged to the Royal Artillery. 

[jay dubaya]

He’s a member of the Royal Artillery be-it Field, Horse or Garrison. The bandolier, riding breeches and spurs would suggest a Driver. The only distinguishing feature between the three arms was the shoulder title RFA, RHA or RGA which sadly is not on view in your image

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, HerDowns said:

My grandfather, William Allan Rennie: b. Glasgow 9th March 1894.  He also later served in RN & was on a large ship bombed & sunk in Dardanelles.  

Hi,

Welcome to GWF.

Could this pension record be his? - William Allan RENNIE, CZ 1533, Royal Naval Division

Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3

If you know them his disability and address these may assist with clarification

From the reverse he appears to have been a single man at the time, received a pension and then a Gratuity - there is a later, 31.10.18, reference to Army Invldg and then further pension payments

M

Edit: I now note at TNA a service record for William RENNIE, Z/1533  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7249750 [Free download currently available]

Edited 2 June , 2022 by Matlock1418
Service record and link

[Allan1892]

Served in the Royal Garrison Artillery, service number 282851. records shows that he had previously been in the Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve. (image courtesy of Find My Past)

[Matlock1418]

11 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

Served in the Royal Garrison Artillery, service number 282851. records shows that he had previously been in the Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve.

The 5 Union Street, Calton Glasgow address is the same as that on the SR of William RENNIE, z/1533 who was 6.10.15 Discharged from Plymouth Hospt. Medically Unfit"

Intriguingly the last line on the RND SR, see link above, is 9.5.21. W.G. Docket to A.G.9b. Reported to R. P. Labour Corps

M

Edited 2 June , 2022 by Matlock1418
typos

[Allan1892]

The attached image (courtesy of Find My Past) shows the date when he enlisted into the Royal Navy Division and also his discharge date. If you have access to Find My Past, the link below will take you to his record.

British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk

 

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, Allan1892 said:

The attached image (courtesy of Find My Past)

I note the addressee was Labour Corps.

M

[Allan1892]

2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I note the addressee was Labour Corps.

M

I just spotted that myself Mr M -- had another look at his papers and found a duplicate page (image attached courtesy of Find My Past) that shows his RGA number was 135771 and 282851 was for the Labour Corps. Having a look to see when he was placed into the LC

[Allan1892]

He wasn't with the RGA very long, transferring into the Labour Corps 30 June 1917 (image courtesy of Find My Past)

[Allan1892]

His Royal Naval Division record shows his service number as CLYDE, Z/1533. He entered service on the 27 October 1914. He is described as being 5 feet 7 inches tall with dark hair and brown eyes. His residence was 5 Union Street, Calton, Glasgow and his father was Edward Rennie of the same residence. He was born on the 9 March 1894 and by religion he was Presbyterian. His civilian occupation was that of a Painter. Image attached (courtesy of Find My Past) shows his RND service.

[HerDowns]

Posted a photo just a couple of hours ago, and am quite overwhelmed and very grateful for the responses already received.  Everything sent in with replies & attachments includes at least one detail confirming his identity to match the photo of him in uniform: He married in 1919; lived in Thistle Street (#295, later #290 from original docs I have); I’ve been told that a) he had a large scar on his back from a scimitar wound, and b) he’d been deafened by (?ship’s) guns but refused to have a new “experimental” surgery so did not receive enhanced pension (would that have been the case?).  
Any ideas about how to find out which ship sank when he was on it in the Dardanelles?  I was with him when he recognised the ship sinking in a b&w newsreel shown in a tv documentary (that was around 1970-72): he jumped up, exclaiming, “That was my ship!  I was one of those men jumping into the water!”
I’m just beginning this research, so have a lot to learn!  The docs posted use a lot of acronyms & military terms that I don’t know. Any help / sources with interpreting those will be most welcome!  

Many thanks to all.  His great-great grandson recently began asking about his ancestry, so I’m doing this mostly for him.

[Michelle Young]

If you post which acronyms and military terms you are struggling with, I’m sure you will get some help. 

[Allan1892]

10 minutes ago, HerDowns said:

I’ve been told that a) he had a large scar on his back from a scimitar wound,

@HerDowns -- he could have been stretching the truth about his scars on his back. Amongst his army papers, under 'DISTINCTIVE MARKS' is 'Four large scars mid back old abscesses in childhood' (image courtesy of Find My Past). He appears to have been prone to having abscesses on his back as it is mentioned on his RND record when he was admitted to hospital in Cairo on the 11 August 1915.

[horatio2]

He served in Benbow and Anson Battalions at Gallipoli and it can be stated without any doubt that he was never in involved in the sinking of a ship  at the Dardanelles. There are two possibilities:-

He might have been referring to the sinking of HMS MAJESTIC off Cape Helles on 27 May 1915. This was a couple of days before the Benbows landed at Helles 'V' Beach having disembarked from the troopship IVERNIA at Lemnos. HMS HYTHE, the ship bringing them from Lemnos to Helle,s passed the visible upturned wreck of Majestic and it could also be clearly seen from shore. This sinking made a huge impression on all who saw it.

Another possibility is that he was  referring to the sinking of HMS HYTHE ( a minesweeper) herself five months later on 28 October 1915, by which date he had long been invalided home. She sank at night (so no movies) after a collision with HMS SARNIA.

Edited 2 June , 2022 by horatio2

[Matlock1418]

45 minutes ago, HerDowns said:

a) he had a large scar on his back from a scimitar wound, and b) he’d been deafened by (?ship’s) guns but refused to have a new “experimental” surgery so did not receive enhanced pension (would that have been the case?).  

a) seems unlikely

b) seems unlikely - Pensions expert @ss002d6252 may perhaps be able to comment ??

45 minutes ago, HerDowns said:

Any ideas about how to find out which ship sank when he was on it in the Dardanelles?  I was with him when he recognised the ship sinking in a b&w newsreel shown in a tv documentary (that was around 1970-72): he jumped up, exclaiming, “That was my ship!  I was one of those men jumping into the water!”

From his Service Record [SR] there are two mentions of ships: 

22.7.15 Hospital Ship SOUDAN - survived the war

3.8.15 Hospital  ORSOVA - survived the war

RN expert @horatio2 may perhaps be able to further assist ??

M

Edit: I see @horatio2 has just posted.

Edited 2 June , 2022 by Matlock1418
edit

[horatio2]

12 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

he’d been deafened by (?ship’s) guns

Rifle fire and shell fire/detonation while fighting ashore at Gallipoli seems entirely possible as a cause of his deafness in an era before ear protection. Some men were doubtless more susceptible than others. The "experimental" surgery yarn, however, seems very unlikely ans does his "scimitar" wound.

Edited 2 June , 2022 by horatio2

[Matlock1418]

Just now, horatio2 said:

Rifle fire and shell fire/detonation while fighting ashore at Gallipoli seems entirely possible as a cause of his deafness in an era before ear protection.

Agreed, that does seem a possibility/potentially most likely cause of deafness - I should have earlier made it clearer that it was the "experimental surgery" and enhanced pension bit that was the subject I was questioning most.

M

[HerDowns]

52 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

@HerDowns -- he could have been stretching the truth about his scars on his back. Amongst his army papers, under 'DISTINCTIVE MARKS' is 'Four large scars mid back old abscesses in childhood' (image courtesy of Find My Past). He appears to have been prone to having abscesses on his back as it is mentioned on his RND record when he was admitted to hospital in Cairo on the 11 August 1915.

Thanks for all your posts: I can see I’m going to be busy following up!  I learned his mother’s name from this doc; seems his second child was likely named after her.  Please could you tell me the title of this document (heading is hidden)?  He was a quiet man who never bragged about his service or injuries; any stories came to me via his children.  

[Matlock1418]

 

28 minutes ago, HerDowns said:

1 hour ago, Allan1892 said:

Expand  

25 minutes ago, HerDowns said:

Please could you tell me the title of this document (heading is hidden)

To me it appears very typical of Page 2 of an Army Attestation or Record of Service - @Allan1892 should be able to clarify.

This I think will be the Page 1 - where it identifies his Labour Corps number of 282851

2 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

Top right shows 618 (Home Service) Employment Company, Labour Corps

Unfortunately this abstract doesn't have a date - but the next page provided above does also show this transfer to be 30 June 1917 and is typical of the early creation of the Labour Corps in 1917.

Sadly I don't have to hand a copy of the excellent history of the Labour Corps, 'No Labour, No Battle', by Starling & Lee, but it explains about such LC companies.

M

[Allan1892]

1 hour ago, HerDowns said:

 Please could you tell me the title of this document (heading is hidden)?

 

25 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

To me it appears very typical of Page 2 of an Army Attestation or Record of Service

@HerDowns -- as Matlock1418 suggested, it was page 2 of his Record of Service Paper

 

[ss002d6252]

4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

b) seems unlikely - Pensions expert @ss002d6252 may perhaps be able to comment ??

Refusal of treatment could lead to a deduction under Article 4 RW 1917.  Whether it was actually applied in practice I don't know, as I've never seen a verifiable case yet where it was. It may well have been threatened, though.

4. – Half the pension and allowances (if any) awarded under the preceding articles may be subject to the condition that the disabled man shall undergo medical treatment in or at a sanatorium, hospital, convalescent home or otherwise, for any period during which he may be certified that such treatment is necessary in his interests.

Craig

[jay dubaya]

William never served overseas again after his stint with the RNVR came to an end, clearly he was determined to do his bit for the cause, he enlisted again on 2nd March 1916. Posted to the RGA (Territorial Force) at Winchester, this gives a window between 4th January1917 when he was mobilised and 30th June 1917 when he was transferred to the Labour Corps for when the above photo was taken. 

I note from 'No Labour, No Battle' (Starling & Lee)  that both 618th and 619th Companies were both Home Service Employment Companies and both based in Winchester.

These employment companies were formed from men who were employed on command, garrison or regimental duties. A total of 59000 NCO's and men were transferred to Home Service Employment Companies between July and August 1917 (under Army Council Instruction (ACI)  2084 of 1916). HS Employment Companies consisted of men of the lowest possible medical categories in order to release fitter men for posting to companies overseas. These men were employed Recruitment Distribution Battalions, in Command Depots, at Enteric Depots, Dysentery Depots and Military Convalescent Hospitals. A company consisted of a Major or Captain as Officer in Command, a subaltern, a Company Sergeant Major (CSM) who also acted as Company Quarter Master Sergeant (CQMS), one orderly room clerk, one batman and 270 NCO's and other ranks. A list of the men and the trade for which they were best suited was maintained by each company, the recognised trades were -

Batman, Cook Telephone Operator, Sanitary duty, Orderly, Clerk, Storeman or Caretaker, Shoemaker, Policeman, Butcher, Loader and Brakeman, Salvage, Laundry, Tailor, Bath and Drying Room, Traffic Control and Regimental Institute which included running Cinema, Theatre and Canteens. Perhaps one trade missing from the list is Painter which William was well accustomed to.at Recruitment Distribution Battalions, in Command Depots, at Enteric Depots, Dysentery Depots and Military Convalescent Hospitals.