Sergeants - 4th Volunteer Battalion Royal Highlanders

[dhubthaigh]

A picture of sergeants of the 4th V.B.R.H. at weekend camp, Monzie, Perthshire. Undated but I would imagine sometime between 1901 - 1907?

Any information relating to uniform and patches/medals would be welcome.

I notice 3 men at the back wearing dark tunic and tartan trews. Others with plaid and brooch.

Thanks

 

[Ron Abbott]

The Pipe-Major appears to be P/M Donald Kennedy (regimental number 825) who served in that capacity with the 4th Volunteer Battalion from around 1903, then post 1908 as P/M of the 6th Battalion until at least 1913 and then during WW1 was P/M of the 2/6th Battalion (albeit that there is at least one newspaper archive that mentions a P/M Kennedy of the 7th Battalion in 1913).  Born c1872, he died in 1953.  In the early 1900s he was also P/M of the (civilian) Perth Highland Pipe Band and the local Celtic Society.  Composer of the bagpipe tune, 'The Laird of Gualich'.  His death is announced in the Daily Record of 5th March 1953.  View photos of him below.  

The other possibility is that the P/M in the photo is P/M Peter MacDonald who was P/M of the 4th Volunteer Battalion until around 1901/1902 and who may have rejoined becoming P/M of the 3/6th Battalion for a couple of years during WW1.  He had also been the first Pipe-Major of the (civilian) Perth & District Pipe Band.  He composed the bagpipe tune, 'The Black Watch Volunteers Farewell to Perth March' in 1900.

[dhubthaigh]

Thanks for the information Ron. Another Pipe Band photo with Donald Kennedy (if it is him) far left.

Kennedy lost a son in 1914 David 'Hector' Kennedy:

[RNCVR]

A picture of sergeants of the 4th V.B.R.H. at weekend camp, Monzie, Perthshire. Undated but I would imagine sometime between 1901 - 1907?

Any information relating to uniform and patches/medals would be welcome.

VERY NICE Photo! Thanks for posting @dhubthaigh!

Several different medals on view -- the Serg't Major(?) in the front row with the large circular insignia on his left shoulder appears to be wearing a five clasp Egypt 1882-85 campaign medal + the Khedive of Egypt's bronze star, which likely means he had seen service in the Regular RH in that time frame. 

The next striking medal group is being worn by the Serg't (appears to have 4 chevrons) looking to his right, in the back row standing 2nd from right -  another multiclasp(appears to be 4 or 5 clasps) Egypt campaign medal, a QSA (3 or 4 clasps), KSA (usual 2 yr clasps),next what might be an Army LS (Long Service) medal, & lastly, the Khedives bronze star for the Egypt campaigns.

There are at least what appear to be 4 or 5 Volunteer LS medals  on chests.  

& what appears to be a King Edward VII Coronation medal being worn by the Colour Serg't standing on left of the photo, 2nd to last row standing, the medal is partially concealed by his shoulder sash? (Pls note: I am unfamiliar with Scottish Reg'ts uniforms so my terminology is not accurate! - I am a Naval guy!).

A few QSA & KSA medals also being worn.  The Serg't sitting to his Officer's left is wearing what appears to be an IGS (1997- )medal + his KSA & KSA medals.

Best w....Bryan

Edited 30 May , 2022 by RNCVR
'

[FROGSMILE]

The three men in dark jackets in the rear row are wearing blue patrol frocks of Scottish pattern.  One is a sergeant instructor of musketry (4-point down chevrons upper arm with crossed rifles and small crown above) while the man adjacent is very likely the ‘acting sergeant major’, who wore 4-inverted chevrons with a large crown above (this was a unique badge for a regular colour sergeant specially selected and appointed as sergeant major of a volunteer battalion).  Far right we cannot see the rank of that man, but like the others he’s almost certainly a member of the battalion’s regular permanent staff.  The blue patrol frock doesn’t seem to be commonly worn by the auxiliaries themselves.  Most (possibly all) the other SNCOs in that rear row are also regular permanent staff, but wearing full dress doublets, and if you look carefully you can see the tell tale edge of 4-inverted chevrons on upper arm of the fellow with shoulder plaid and 4-medals, just about discernible.  The man far left rear row is also a musketry instructor.

Most of the other SNCOs seated lower down in scarlet doublets are part timers, albeit some are veterans with medals from former service.  They can be identified by the 4-point [‘proficiency’] star topping their rank badges.  The sergeant with medal and numerous clasps, but no proficiency star, is possibly regular permanent staff in some other HQ role, but it’s impossible to be sure.  Another sergeant without proficiency star is an auxiliary as the efficiency (training attendance) stars can be seen on his right cuff, not all volunteer sergeants took the examination for proficiency as it wasn’t obligatory, but encouraged for those who were keen to show enthusiasm and get on.  I think his medal is the Volunteer Long Service Medal with its plain green ribbon.  A few other auxiliaries in the group wear it also.

The SNCO seated centrally in the lower row is also a Musketry Instuctor and member of regular permanent staff.  Just as with the Acting Sergeant Majors badge these are specifically for regular colour sergeants appointed as musketry instructors with volunteer battalions.

The lone captain seated towards the back is almost certainly the battalion’s adjutant (also a regular appointee) and seated adjacent another musketry instructor (from memory there was one of these per company).

NB.  The enclosed photo shows a later pattern blue patrol frock, but gives an approximate impression of appearance.

Edited 31 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[dhubthaigh]

Thanks RNCVR and FROGSMILE for the information, much appreciated. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, dhubthaigh said:

Thanks RNCVR and FROGSMILE for the information, much appreciated. 

Glad to help, it’s a cracking photograph, thank you for posting it.  I wonder if @ronmarsdenhas seen it?

[dhubthaigh]

I have been looking further into this image and have identified a few of the men who went on to serve in the Great War. 

[ronmarsden]

Great photos!

I notice they are wearing 4/V/RH WM shoulder titles I think worn 1908/10.

Have been searching for a pair of these for years if antone has them PM me please.

[ronmarsden]

Correction to my previous post not worn after 1908!!

Senior moment IM AFRAID.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, ronmarsden said:

Correction to my previous post not worn after 1908!!

Senior moment IM AFRAID.

Yes the titles must have been in use from the time the battalion took its post Cardwell title until 1908.

3 hours ago, ronmarsden said:

Great photos!

I notice they are wearing 4/V/RH WM shoulder titles I think worn 1908/10.

Have been searching for a pair of these for years if antone has them PM me please.

I knew you’d like the picture Ron. 

[oldrag71]

Hello....

Just stumbled across this post.  Thought someone might be interested in the sporran I have.  If anyone can provide any other information regarding the year, numbers and/or  letters on the back, please let me know.

ALSO...the two other "things" came with the sporran.  I have no idea what they are and/or if they are even a part of a uniform.  There is some writing on one.  If anyoone can help with identifying them, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

[6RRF]

Not seen those for a very long time. They are garters for hose and the leather bits are what the flashes were attached to.

[oldrag71]

Any idea on the age of them?

 

[6RRF]

Afraid not. Somebody needs to be able to comment on the use of elastics. Clearly one's a replacement for a lost or damaged one. 

The trouble is that they are "invisible" items normally hidden behind the top fold of the hose and the freshly cleaned and pressed flashes

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, 6RRF said:

Afraid not. Somebody needs to be able to comment on the use of elastics. Clearly one's a replacement for a lost or damaged one. 

The trouble is that they are "invisible" items normally hidden behind the top fold of the hose and the freshly cleaned and pressed flashes

Forum member @Ron Abbottmight be able to comment about the hose tab garters.  Elastic requires rubber and that was expensive so certainly wouldn’t have been contemporary to the Volunteer Battalions that existed pre 1908.

Edited 9 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Mike_H]

They look like pads worn under the foot to raise the instep and help with flat feet - I remember them being in use in the 1950's

Mike

 

[dhubthaigh]

On 08/01/2023 at 19:36, oldrag71 said:

Hello....

Just stumbled across this post.  Thought someone might be interested in the sporran I have.  If anyone can provide any other information regarding the year, numbers and/or  letters on the back, please let me know.

ALSO...the two other "things" came with the sporran.  I have no idea what they are and/or if they are even a part of a uniform.  There is some writing on one.  If anyoone can help with identifying them, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

Hello Oldrag71. I wonder if the 4th V. B. sporran could have been subsequently issued to Thomas James Grubb. He was No. 1097 and would have joined the 6th Black Watch early in 1912 going out with the first draft to France in May 1915. He was a Perth lad but moved to England after the war.......

[TullochArd]

Great photo.  The PSIs are easily spotted by the use of the regulars BW cap badge regardless of the order of dress. 

This fellow seems to be bucking the trend in relation to the usual style of jackets .......

 

[oldrag71]

Hey ....THANKS for all the information!  I guess it is possible that it belonged to Thomas James Grubb.  This is all pretty amazing and much appreciated.

[FROGSMILE]

On 25/02/2023 at 10:58, TullochArd said:

Great photo.  The PSIs are easily spotted by the use of the regulars BW cap badge regardless of the order of dress. 

This fellow seems to be bucking the trend in relation to the usual style of jackets .......

 

He’s wearing the circa 1898 serge frock with its distinctive breast pockets.  They were produced in both, scarlet and blue.  There was also one in rifle green, but they were quickly overtaken by drab service dress, with only the blue enduring.

Edited 5 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

He’s wearing the circa 1898 serge frock with its distinctive breast pockets.  They were produced in both, scarlet and blue.

Thanks for that Frogsmile.  That explains it.

[Piper42nd]

Could someone post an image of the badge worn on the sergeants' glengarries?  I (naively i suppose) assumed that all BW battalions wore the same badge.

Harvey 

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Piper42nd said:

Could someone post an image of the badge worn on the sergeants' glengarries?  I (naively i suppose) assumed that all BW battalions wore the same badge.

Harvey 

These two are both genuine with provenance.  Silver and hallmarked for officers and sergeants in battalion staff appointments, white metal (nickel) for ranks beneath.

Badges were often different for the Volunteer Battalion’s (then Territorial Force after 1908) as they endeavoured to retain a lineal link with their forebear units of the old Volunteer Rifles Corps.  Citizen soldiers in the truest sense with strong, home and hearth association.

Edited 5 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Piper42nd]

Thanks Frogsmile.  Live and learn.

On 25/02/2023 at 05:58, TullochArd said:

Great photo.  The PSIs are easily spotted by the use of the regulars BW cap badge regardless of the order of dress. 

This fellow seems to be bucking the trend in relation to the usual style of jackets .......

 

I noticed that this fellow is wearing a kilt and a Slade Wallace type belt while the others with patrol jackets are wearing tartan trews and aren't wearing belts.