SMLE Bayonet - is this a service number

[ttd0]

A while since I posted here, I'm normally over on the British Medal Forum. As a random diversion from medals I have picked up a SMLE 1907 Bayonet, marked with Wilkinson and date of Nov 1915. On the handle on one side appears to be etched 4 SWB and on the other looks like stamped or engraved the number 27641. Is this number likely to be an issue number or a soldier's service number? I would have thought an issue number, however the number does match to a soldier of the 4th Bn, South Wales Borderers (the 4SWB from the handle?) who served overseas after the start of 1916 and died on service in Mesopotamia in Dec 1917.

[JMB1943]

Battalion number and regimental abbreviation ( 4 S.W.B.), if marked at all, would always be on the flat side of the pommel.

Any numbering, also on the pommel, would be a rack or rifle number so that the bayonet would always be matched to a particular rifle, so that a good fit was guaranteed.

The battalion / regiment / service number, IF GENUINE & MARKED AT THE TIME, on the grips is VERY unusual.

The numbering does look “professionally” done using dies, while the SWB lettering looks more hand-written.

I don’t recall seeing another.

Regards,

JMB

[ttd0]

Thanks, I agree 4SWB looks almost scratched on maybe by the soldier themselves, whilst the number looks more 'official'. Not sure if it's just a massive co-incidence that the number matches a soldier of the 4SWB or if it is actually some rack or other reference/issue number.

[AndyBsk]

Same opinion even not a english area extra oriented, i assume the 5 digit number couldbe the serial number of rifle, or some inventory.

[trajan]

Very odd... And if it did belong to a guy who died in Mesopotamia how did it get back west? If sent back as 'surplus' then surely it would have been re-gripped?

 

[ttd0]

Also worth noting that the soldier with that number died of illness in hospital rather than on the battlefield

[PhilB]

I don’t recall seeing a 4, with a bar across the bottom like that, on an officially stamped WW1 item.

[Dave66]

I vaguely remember seeing numbering on grips like this before, and assumed post ww1 and Anzac or colonial….I really don’t think British issue for the same reasons both JMB and PhilB have pointed out above.

Could SWB simply relate to another foreign regiment???

Dave.

[ttd0]

Thanks for everyone's input.

[alabamadaisy]

Hello, I am new to this topic but came across your post while researching my own.  I have a very similar marking on a bayonet with a number 22173 on the handle.  I could not find another number on it.  I’m going to try to upload photos.  I know your post is a month old but still thought I would reply to it.

[JMB1943]

Alabamadaisy,

 First off, welcome to the forum.

Second, the same comments apply to your example that were made for the above example.

It is now starting to be a little more unusual, because again these numerals appear to have been applied with dies, and so appear to be at least semi-official.

Note the serifs on the “2” and the “7”, and the curvature on the leg of the “7”.

A search of 22173 on CWGC brings up four names in four different regiments between Nov 1915 and Dec 1916.

One was in the Border Regt. (NOT the same as South Wales Borderers), one in the Bedfordshire Regt, one in the Gloucestershire Regt and one in the 21st Tyneside Scottish Bn of the Northumberland Regt.

But of course these were men who died, others with the same service number (if that is what it is) who survived are unknowns.

It will be interesting to see if a trend ever develops with these numbered Bayonets.

Regards,

JMB

EDIT: Please post a photo that shows the date & maker of the bayonet!

Edited 20 June , 2022 by JMB1943
Add info

[alabamadaisy]

Thank you so much.  I’m going to post the photos here.  This bayonet was from a family member who passed away over 30 years ago.  The information we had was that he acquired it while in Korea in the service.  I was able to quickly learn it wasn’t from that era.  Based on reading the forums, I thought it was WW II from the W.J.H. B on the scabbard and the “33” on the metal.  After seeing this post with the numbers on the handle, I looked closer at ours since it also has the numbers (and I was thinking too that maybe it could be from the same unit or area).  Now I think maybe the bayonet is WW I, with 3/17 or 8/17 as the date.  There is a “3” turned sideways and stamped over the 17, so the 17 is harder to see.  I appreciate any information.  It has been so interesting to read all that I have so far.  Thank you!!!

[JMB1943]

It is certainly a Great War bayonet, as you say either 3 or 8 17; my feeling is 8 17.

Stamps of ‘33 and ‘39 are re- inspection stamps; the 3 over the 17 looks to me like ‘36 so a long and busy service life.

Obviously, none of the “22173” men who died in 1915-16 ever laid hands on this bayonet.

Regards,

JMB

 

 

[alabamadaisy]

Thank you very much!

[Chasemuseum]

I have never seen nor heard of official numbering of an SMLE bayonet carried out in this manner, by British or Commonwealth forces.

I do have a Canadian Ross rifle and bayonet where a large serial/rack number has been stamped in each. These came from the Chilean battleship Almirante Latorre  (HMCS Canada during WW1) and were part of the ships equipment when it was finally supplied to Chile. The numbers are believed to have been applied during the Chilean service rather than the Canadian service however there is no definitive evidence either way.

My reaction is that the numbers on the bayonets above are some attempt to match bayonets to rifles and have them more accountable when signed in and out of the armoury. I strongly suspect that this has been done for school cadets or similar purposes, much latter than WW1. As an Australian Army school cadet in the early 1970s, I was involved with a program to rack number the 300 rifles in our school armoury. I did not know it at the time but we had no authority to modify the rifles in the manner we did and when the army armourer's made their annual audit of the armoury they were furious.

 

My points are: away from British/Commonwealth service, many things happenned with markings.

                       even within British/Commonwealth service, at the remote end of weapon life cycle, with school cadet & police use, non-regulation markings occur.

 

 

[t.ryan]

Just to confuse the issue a little more, while browsing for stray smiling tiger bayonets, I came across these 1907 grip numbered  bayonets, two of which have the same numbers as those stamped on the pommel and the numbers are only 22 apart.

Cheers,

TR

Edited 21 June , 2022 by t.ryan

[JMB1943]

TR,

Your observations give this grip-marking discussion a whole new dimension.

Pommel markings are “usually” taken to be a rifle or rack number, but for any battalion the numbers would only be in the 3-digits range, as are those those that you show (Coy D?).

I hope that we will see more of both the low and the high numbers, as they are BOTH very unusual.

Regards,

JMB

 

 

[303man]

Rang a bell checked this on in my collection similarly marked.

[Mattr82]

I'm thinking TR that the bayonets in those photos are Australian cadet issue. Chase is likely spot on. I have a couple of ex-cadet rifles and they have a letter followed by a number. Example here is a 1915 Lithgow of mine. "B 241"

 

 

[4thGordons]

15 minutes ago, Mattr82 said:

I'm thinking TR that the bayonets in those photos are Australian cadet issue. Chase is likely spot on. I have a couple of ex-cadet rifles and they have a letter followed by a number. Example here is a 1915 Lithgow of mine. "B 241"

 

 

 

What length is the butt on this rifle.

It doesn't look to me as though the B and the numbers are related.  I was wondering if as a cadet rifle it was fitted with a Bantam (B) stock?

 

Chris

[Mattr82]

The only bantam stock I have is on a Mk.1 and that's towards the butt plate. Its noticeably shorter than the other SMLEs I have. Only one of my Lithgows has a long butt and that's marked in same area. I did a size comparison with the rifle with the B on the butt in question and that's the same length as normal 12.5 inches or so. The marking is definitely later on its life. I've seen similar markings before which have been cadet rifles. Some on the butt (both sides) and 2 Ive seen have had them in the wrist area.

 

 

[Chasemuseum]

Further to my previous comment on School cadet rifles in the early 1970s. We entered cadets in year 8 with an average age of 13. The armoury held 300 SMLE No1 Mk III & Mk III* rifles (a mix of live and DP rifles), and a small number of SMLE No1s converted to .22LR, and a quantity of Bren guns. Every rifle had a full size butt. We did not have any bantam butts, although they would have been very useful.

 

Roughly half of the rifles were UK made and these were mostly 1908 to 1914. Most rifles had been refurbished at some point in time with a new barrel fitted. Every rifle had been re-sighted for HV (Mk VII) ammunition. All rear volley sights had been removed and all rifles where the stock was fitted for a fore volley sight had had the pointer army of the sight removed. All magazine cut-offs had been removed.

 

Amongst the WW1 Lithgow rifles was an amazing array of timbers. We must have had examples of every timber that Lithgow experimented with. Some were very attractive.

[t.ryan]

The D385 numbered bayonet was in a post that trajan started on 20/11/2014, so i believe that it may be from his part of the world, he may have more follow up information about the history of those numbers.  

The D364 bayonet was one sold in the UK so not sure they would have any connection with the school cadets here but as we know, bayonets do get spread far and wide.

Cheers,

TR

[Chasemuseum]

Australia cleared out the war reserves of .303 weapons back in 1988. Tens of thousands of rifles and several thousand Brens & Vickers. Most were bought by UK dealers and shipped first to the UK. A lot was demilled and sold in the UK/european market and a lot was demilled and shipped to USA. So there is a huge amount of the old "Australian Army Cadet"material in the UK market.

Cheers

Ross

[peregrinvs]

There was a time in the 1990’s in the UK when Australian Bren and Vickers guns were relatively cheap and plentiful on the deact market. My first Bren was a 1945 Lithgow (the serial number was within 100 or so of the last one made IIRC) and came with a tripod, transit chest, magazine box and cleaning kit for the princely sum of £200. I don’t recall there being lots of Lithgow SMLEs though.

What a shame the Owen SMGs didn’t come with them. I think there were quantities of their bayonets though. I own one.