Are all the Burnt WW1 service records (WO 363) now available on ancestry?

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

Hi All

         I was just wondering if anybody could confirm are all the Burnt WW1 service records (WO 363) now now available on ancestry? I always live in hope that my Uncle Arthur's will appear one day

         Thanks

Edited 9 May , 2022 by the_ageing_young_rebel
A spelling mistake

[ss002d6252]

9 minutes ago, the_ageing_young_rebel said:

Hi All

         I was just wondering if anybody could confirm are all the Burnt WW1 service records (WO 363) now now available on ancestry? I always live in hope that my Uncle Arthur's will appear one day

         Thanks

They are, yes

Check FindMyPast though as they are better indexed than Ancestry and pick some that Ancestry has missed in their indexing.

Craig

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

13 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

They are, yes

Check FindMyPast though as they are better indexed than Ancestry and pick some that Ancestry has missed in their indexing.

Craig

Thanks. I just gave that a try. But no luck there. In fact I found even less documents than on Ancestry. It seems like his documents must have been lost to the fire.

      Thanks anyway though

[Matlock1418]

12 hours ago, the_ageing_young_rebel said:

Uncle Arthur

12 hours ago, the_ageing_young_rebel said:

It seems like his documents must have been lost to the fire.

If you care to give us his full name, some personal details and whatever military details you already have then the combined might of GWF can often produce a passable 'reconstruction' of his likely servce record.  If you want ...

M

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

22 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

If you care to give us his full name, some personal details and whatever military details you already have then the combined might of GWF can often produce a passable 'reconstruction' of his likely servce record.  If you want ...

M

Thanks. I have a fair amount of detail for him in reality. I'm just always hopeful that his service record (or something a little more personal) will arrive one day.

The story I have at the moment is that he was born 6th Dec 1989 in White Street Bristol as Arthur Henry King.  His original service number, 4538, which suggests that he enlisted in May 1915, and he can hardly have been more than sixteen years old, so he must have successfully lied about his age. Later in 1916 his new service number became 201401.

Battalion Orders of 24th March 1916 record 4538 Private King, A.H. joining the battalion with twenty-six others on 20th/21st March. He was posted to “B” Company 1/4th Gloucesters. They were in the front line trenches at the time in front of Colincamps.

Battalion Orders of 25th August 1916 reported that 4538 Private King A.H. of “B” Company had been missing in action since 22nd August, along with nine others. He is recorded as having died on 22nd August, just seventeen years old (although his death certificate claims he was 20), and has no known grave, being commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial. He was entitled to the British War Medal and the Allied Victory Medal.

I have the war diaries of the regiment and even a personal diary of somebody who was in action with his company when he died. I'm just at that annoying part of research when it appears that you might have found all there is to find.

  

[TEW]

If you stick to WO363 Ancestry have records or parts of records that FMP don't seem to have and vice verse. This may be down to how each company has indexed WO363. You do find mis-placed sheets within some service records which have not been indexed, or perhaps FMP may have indexed some of them. 

There are certainly no more WO363 records to add to the series.

MH106 is a National Archives series which includes admission and discharge books, medical sheets, x-ray books, operations etc. Find my past have these but:

• They contain many original errors.
• FMP have some transcribing errors
• FMP are still adding more of these.
• National Archives have only released some to FMP and have their own index which is not complete!

These would include a man being admitted for sickness or trench foot  etc.

It's probably a very slim chance that one day a MH106 record will appear on FMP but perhaps worth bearing in mind.

Then there's the 'Casualty List' topic. These are more or less random recycled sheets added to WO363 files. FMP have indexed many of these but again they contain many original errors (having been carried across from the MH106 series) and FMP have not indexed every sheet or in some cases every name on a sheet and made some transcription errors.

At present there are 5000+ sheets in the above topic, they show up in random order arranged by Records Office. For King you'd have to trawl through 68 pages trying to spot Warwick Record Office for March-August 1916 in the very slim chance he was admitted or discharged to/from a medical unit and the relevant sheet showing that still exists and has been uploaded. There are far more lists missing than those that still exist.

Just to see what you're up against have a scroll through this page https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/89635-casualty-lists/page/49

These may become arranged into chronological order some time in the future.

TEW

 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

16 hours ago, the_ageing_young_rebel said:

Thanks. I just gave that a try. But no luck there. In fact I found even less documents than on Ancestry. It seems like his documents must have been lost to the fire.

Happens, but it's rare. FindMyPast put more far more effort in to ensuring records were split up and indexed properly, whereas Ancestry often has 2 or 3 records merged in to one.

Craig

[Matlock1418]

7 hours ago, the_ageing_young_rebel said:

I'm just at that annoying part of research when it appears that you might have found all there is to find.

As you only mention Ancestry and Find My Past = Have you seen the pension index cards at WFA/Fold3?

M

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

In addition to the 2 million surviving records in the 'burnt' series, there  are also about 3/4 million records in  the 'unburnt' records WO364:

War Office: Soldiers’ Documents from Pension Claims, First World War (Microfilm Copies); (The National Archives Microfilm Publication WO364).

These were copies of the service records of soldiers (or relatives) claiming war pensions, that fortunately were stored somewhere else on the night of the  Arnside fire.

Together, they still make up a minority of the 5 to 6 million men who served.

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

As you only mention Ancestry and Find My Past = Have you seen the pension index cards at WFA/Fold3?

M

Thanks for the tip. I found a Army Registers of Soldiers Effects document for him on Fold3, but is that a seperate document?

[Matlock1418]

13 minutes ago, the_ageing_young_rebel said:

I found a Army Registers of Soldiers Effects document for him on Fold3, but is that a seperate document?

Pension index cards are different.

If you have access to Fold3 see: Reference Number: 113/0532/KIN-KIN  Document Number: 11 D 90358  https://www.fold3.com/image/669041615?terms=king,4538 is the most complete/interesting [two others there provide little more]

M

[Keith_history_buff]

The Register of Soldiers Effects is available via Ancestry. The legatee information is useful to the genealogist.

The war gratuity can be reverse engineered to determine when they joined the army. It's beyond me how to do this, though.

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

34 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Pension index cards are different.

If you have access to Fold3 see: Reference Number: 113/0532/KIN-KIN  Document Number: 11 D 90358  https://www.fold3.com/image/669041615?terms=king,4538 is the most complete/interesting [two others there provide little more]

M

Thanks. I just paid for fold3 and downloaded any and all of those docs I could find. I can't read this though. I don't suppose you have any idea what it might say do you?

[Matlock1418]

10 hours ago, the_ageing_young_rebel said:

Awards file destroyed = the usual fate of pension files once their use was passed.

11/D/90358 = the Dependant's file reference which you can also see top left of the other side of this/his card [see the link I provided above]

Case No ... = don't know all of it really but usually ended with a date and initials [as appears the annotation here]

The same destroyed annotation appears on the back of another PIC, his father's/Arthur's claim card which cross-links to the above/his card [father's continuation claim starts in 1933 after his mother died - the year of the file destruction date is no clearer on this other card!]

M

Edited 11 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
expand and clarify

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

10 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Awards file destroyed = the usual fate of pension files once their use was passed.

11/D/90358 = the Dependant's file reference which you can also see top left of the other side of this/his card [see the link I provided above]

Case No ... = don't know all of it really but usually ended with a date and initials [as appears the annotation here]

The same destroyed annotation appears on the back of another PIC, his father's/Arthur's claim card which cross-links to the above/his card [father's continuation claim starts in 1933 after his mother died - the year of the file destruction date is no clearer on this other card!]

M

Thanks for all the help