How to fold a DFC ribbon to wear on a tunic?

[dutchbarge]

Hello,  I've studied dozens of period photos of RFC/RAF officers in an effort to determine the correct method of folding a DFC ribbon to be worn on a service dress tunic, either individually or as part of a ribbon bar.  It seems that there was no universally adopted method. I've arranged the four most prevalent configurations below from top to bottom in order of the most to least common configuration as observed in said period photos.   Do any of the members have any information as to whether or not there was a prescribed manner to fold the ribbon or (as it appears from observation of period photos) was it left to the individual.  Any help will be most appreciated.  Cheers, Bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 6 May , 2022 by dutchbarge

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, dutchbarge said:

No idea really - But the above would seem the most logical [to me anyway!] as it's symetrical and more in line with the full riband.

3 hours ago, dutchbarge said:

Or this one, for the same reasoning.

The assymetric ones just seem plain wrong [to me anyway!]

M

[KizmeRD]

 

As above.

MB

[dutchbarge]

Here's some period photos supporting the first pattern I posted:

 

 

 

Edited 8 May , 2022 by dutchbarge

[dutchbarge]

And these supporting pattern 2 and 3 (hard to tell from the photos which is which, but definitely not pattern 1 or 4) The last is, of course, Billy Bishop and a painting not a photo, clearly depicts a pattern 2 ribbon.

Edited 6 May , 2022 by dutchbarge

[dutchbarge]

and one pattern 4 and 2 that are neither 1,2,3 or 4, the last is a photo of items from the collection of the Gloucester Museums, UK:

Edited 7 May , 2022 by dutchbarge

[scottmarchand]

As an aside -  the main reason the DFC, AFC, DFM AFM ribbons were changed to diagnoal stripes was because of how crappy the horizontal style looked on uniform ribbon strips. Exhibits for the prosecution  posted above by Dutchbarge!

[dutchbarge]

18 hours ago, scottmarchand said:

As an aside -  the main reason the DFC, AFC, DFM AFM ribbons were changed to diagnoal stripes was because of how crappy the horizontal style looked on uniform ribbon strips. Exhibits for the prosecution  posted above by Dutchbarge!

That and perhaps command's universal intolerance for individualism..........

I've heard recipients of the US version of the DFC express disappointment that its ribbon (displayed on the ribbon bar) is an insipid looking affair easily mistaken for a dozen other awards, whilst the UK DFC, with its diagonal purple and white stripes, stands out like a 'DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE' sign.

Edited 7 May , 2022 by dutchbarge

[dutchbarge]

Here's a US ribbon bar (strip, rack whatever).......................see if you can find the DFC........................

Edited 7 May , 2022 by dutchbarge

[Matlock1418]

19 hours ago, dutchbarge said:

Here's a US ribbon bar (strip, rack whatever).......................see if you can find the DFC........................

Of course in the first place I had to look up what it looks like!

Bang central it seems - but most certainly not that distinctive.

M

[dutchbarge]

23 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Bang central

Give the man a cigar.............spot on.  Cheers, Bill

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 06/05/2022 at 06:47, dutchbarge said:

Hello,  I've studied dozens of period photos of RFC/RAF officers in an effort to determine the correct method of folding a DFC ribbon to be worn on a service dress tunic, either individually or as part of a ribbon bar.  It seems that there was no universally adopted method. I've arranged the four most prevalent configurations below from top to bottom in order of the most to least common configuration as observed in said period photos.   Do any of the members have any information as to whether or not there was a prescribed manner to fold the ribbon or (as it appears from observation of period photos) was it left to the individual.  Any help will be most appreciated.  Cheers, Bill

 

 

 

I think that this chart published to illustrate the very earliest arrangements for RAF uniform in 1918 gives some guidance too, Bill.

Edited 10 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[dutchbarge]

As always, Senior Frog, I am amazed at the depth of your collected information.......thanks again for your help.......you haven't seen the back of me yet..............Cheers, Bill

Edited 10 May , 2022 by dutchbarge

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, dutchbarge said:

As always, Senior Frog, I am amazed at the depth of your collected information.......thanks again for your help.......you haven't seen the back of me yet..............Cheers, Bill

“Relic of many a fight and siege and sack, it points a moral and adorns the back.”

NB. The only British regiment with its flag to still flying at Yorktown. 👍

Edited 10 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[dutchbarge]

19 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

“Relic of many a fight and siege and sack, it points a moral and adorns the back.”

NB. The only British regiment with its flag to still flying at Yorktown. 👍

Probably information you already have (I don't think there is much you don't), but maybe these articles didn't receive much attention in Blighty..........

https://jyfmuseums.org/news/july-23-flag-raising-ceremony-starts-at-yorktown-victory-center-proceeds-to-yorktown-battlefields-royal-welch-fusiliers-redoubt/

https://www.revolutionarywarjournal.com/23rd-regiment-of-foot-royal-welch-fusiliers-eight-bloody-years-in-america/

A bit off topic, actually totally of topic, but rules don't seem to count for much these days...............

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, dutchbarge said:

Probably information you already have (I don't think there is much you don't), but maybe these articles didn't receive much attention in Blighty..........

https://jyfmuseums.org/news/july-23-flag-raising-ceremony-starts-at-yorktown-victory-center-proceeds-to-yorktown-battlefields-royal-welch-fusiliers-redoubt/

https://www.revolutionarywarjournal.com/23rd-regiment-of-foot-royal-welch-fusiliers-eight-bloody-years-in-america/

A bit off topic, actually totally of topic, but rules don't seem to count for much these days...............

Thanks Bill, there’s a link between service to the crown then and service by the same unit between 1914-18, so hopefully we might be cut some slack.  I feel both privileged and incredibly old to have worn the insignia of such a regiment, which sadly no longer exists in the form it held for over 300 years. 

Edited 10 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[dutchbarge]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks Bill, there’s a link between service to the crown then and service by the same unit between 1914-18, so hopefully we might be cut some slack.  I feel both privileged and incredibly old to have worn the insignia of such a regiment, which sadly no longer exists in the form it held for over 300 years. 

I too for many years wore the insignia of the 23rd (badge inherited from great grandfather/balmoral from grandfather)..............cheers, Bill

 

Edited 10 May , 2022 by dutchbarge

[FROGSMILE]

52 minutes ago, dutchbarge said:

I too for many years wore the insignia of the 23rd (badge inherited from great grandfather/balmoral from grandfather).......see attached photo taken decades ago......I still have both the balmoral and wife....she's commented more than once that when the cap and I were inseparable I had a full head of hair.....now that the cap is semi-retired not so much.............cheers, Bill

That is amusing given that there’s no connection between the 23rd and a decidedly ‘Scottish’ Balmoral, but hey…whatever floats the family boat 😉

Edited 10 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[dutchbarge]

On 10/05/2022 at 13:29, FROGSMILE said:

whatever floats the family boat 😉

My Great Grandfather, according to family lore, was in the 23rd (every Christmas we'd hang a little Welsh soldier ornament on the tree in his honor)........according to Ancestry.com he was actually (and briefly) in the 4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards from which he deserted in 1850 to journey to California to pan for gold.....somewhere I have a letter he wrote Queen Victoria in 1887 asking that She pardon his crime of desertion on the occasion of Her Jubilee Indulgences.  Despite his having become a naturalized US citizen almost four decades earlier and residing 5,000 odd miles (an appreciable distance in those days) out of reach of the Crown, his letter is very humble if not downright obsequious.  I often wonder which is better......to continue in ignorance about such things or to have the facts......in this instance however I found it most endearing to think of him as a young boy running off to an adventure in the new world and yet after almost 40 years separation still longing to set set things right in the land of his birth...........Cheers, Bill

On 10/05/2022 at 15:15, dutchbarge said:

 

PS: I surprised the moderator hasn't pulled the plug on our digression from DFC ribbons, or at least moved it to Skindles.

Edited 11 May , 2022 by dutchbarge

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, dutchbarge said:

My Great Grandfather, according to family lore, was in the 23rd (every Christmas we'd hang little Welsh soldier ornaments on the tree in his honor)........according to Ancestry.com he was actually (and briefly) in the 4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards from which he deserted in 1850 to journey to California to pan for gold.....somewhere I have a letter he wrote Queen Victoria in 1887 asking that She pardon his crime of desertion on the occasion of Her Jubilee Indulgences.  Despite his having become a naturalized US citizen almost four decades earlier and residing 5,000 odd miles (an appreciable distance in those days) out of reach of the Crown, his letter is very humble if not downright obsequious.  I often wonder which is better......to continue in ignorance about such things or to have the facts......in this instance however I found it most endearing to think of him as a young boy running off to an adventure in the new world and yet after almost 40 years separation still longing to set set things right in the land of his birth...........Cheers, Bill

PS: I surprised the moderator hasn't pulled the plug on our digression from DFC ribbons, or at least moved it to Skindles.

That’s interesting Bill.  A great many British soldiers from successive generations deserted when based in North America, (later ones hopping over from Canada), so your great, great grandfather was in good company.  Reading about it in the past it seems that they were mostly seduced by their own individual perceptions of the American Dream (including winsome, freckle faced, sun kissed girls).  I understand what you mean about seeking absolution from the old mother country, I think it can be a troubling thing in the mind of a veteran who swore allegiance, as he must have done. 

Edited 10 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE