Glamorgan Yeomanry - Grandfathers service in Ireland

[Tim S]

Hi John

I'm in the same boat as you. My Grandfather served in the 3/1 Glamorgan Yeomanry and was in Dublin during the uprising in 1916 (I was told this by my Dad). I am trying to find out more info. Have you uncovered any external information (outside of this forum) since you posted this request 4 years ago. I see no one has replied.

Tim

[pjwmacro]

6 hours ago, Tim S said:

Have you uncovered any external information (outside of this forum)

Unusually, Wikipedia actually has slightly more info than the Long Long Trail (although you probably know this already): The 3rd Line regiment was formed in 1915 and in the summer it was affiliated to a Reserve Cavalry Regiment at The Curragh. In the summer of 1916, it was dismounted and attached to the 3rd Line Groups of the Welsh Division as its 1st Line was serving as infantry. The regiment was disbanded in early 1917 with the personnel transferring to the 2nd Line or to the 4th (Reserve) Battalion of the Welsh Regiment at Milford Haven.

The source is given as:  James, Brigadier E.A. (1978). British Regiments 1914–18. London: Samson Books Limited. ISBN 0-906304-03-2. May be worth seeking out a copy. Also suggested reading is:  "Glamorgan - Its Gentlemen & Yeomanry 1797 - 1980" by Bryn Owen,; published by Starling Press in 1983. (IWM has a copy) There is also Welsh Yeomanry at War by Steven John, but I think this focusses on the 1st/1st.

The West Glamorgan Archives - Swansea collections also have some archives about the yeomanry, but whether these are of relevance I have no idea, I`m not sure if there is a regimental museum which would cover the Yeomanry - but given their links to the Royal Welsh, it would probably be worth contacting the Royal Welsh Regiment Museum: Miltary Museum Brecon Wales | Royal Welsh Museum

Regards, Paul

[Tim S]

Thanks for your reply Paul

Your links are helpful.

What I am trying to confirm, via documented evidence, is that my Grandfather served with the 3/1st Glamorgan Yeomanry and in particular in Dublin during the 'Up Rising' in 1916, as I was verbal told by my Dad that he did. For example his name in a War Diary associated to the 3/1st or his documents for joining and leaving the 3/1st. That type of thing.

I know he left the Glamorgan Yeomanry around about Dec 1916 and went into the 14 battalion of the 38th Welsh Division because I have his medal card, medals and newspaper cuttings telling me this. However, his medals and medal cards don't tell me anything about the Glamorgan Yeomanry.

I also know he was wounded around about the start of the 3rd battle of Ypres whilst serving with the 14th Battalion (probably the battle of Pilkem Ridge) as I have a newspaper paragraph saying he was in hospital in Birmingham on the 11th Aug 1917 after being wounded.

What I don't have is documented evidence of his time in the Glamorgan Yeomanry.

Is there such a thing as a Glamorgan Yeomanry Museum or Association that you know about. I can't find anything!

Having just mentioned above about him being wounded. Is there any way in which I can find out the exact day and action he was in when he got wounded. I only have the newspaper paragraph (11th Aug 1917) saying he was in hospital after being wounded and his name in the casualty list (23th Aug 1917). 

I look forward to your reply.

Tim 

 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, Tim S said:

Thanks for your reply Paul

Your links are helpful.

What I am trying to confirm, via documented evidence, is that my Grandfather served with the 3/1st Glamorgan Yeomanry and in particular in Dublin during the 'Up Rising' in 1916, as I was verbal told by my Dad that he did. For example his name in a War Diary associated to the 3/1st or his documents for joining and leaving the 3/1st. That type of thing.

I know he left the Glamorgan Yeomanry around about Dec 1916 and went into the 14 battalion of the 38th Welsh Division because I have his medal card, medals and newspaper cuttings telling me this. However, his medals and medal cards don't tell me anything about the Glamorgan Yeomanry.

I also know he was wounded around about the start of the 3rd battle of Ypres whilst serving with the 14th Battalion (probably the battle of Pilkem Ridge) as I have a newspaper paragraph saying he was in hospital in Birmingham on the 11th Aug 1917 after being wounded.

What I don't have is documented evidence of his time in the Glamorgan Yeomanry.

Is there such a thing as a Glamorgan Yeomanry Museum or Association that you know about. I can't find anything!

Having just mentioned above about him being wounded. Is there any way in which I can find out the exact day and action he was in when he got wounded. I only have the newspaper paragraph (11th Aug 1917) saying he was in hospital after being wounded and his name in the casualty list (23th Aug 1917). 

I look forward to your reply.

Tim 

 

 

 

Who was your grandfather and what's his service number ?

Craig

[ss002d6252]

I've split this in to its own thread.

Craig

[Tim S]

2 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Who was your grandfather and what's his service number ?

Craig

His Name: Francis Joseph Stewart (known as Frank)

His service number: On his medals are 6407 Welsh R. On his medal card are 6407 Welsh R and 54474 14th Welsh R.

I don't know if one of these numbers is his previous Glamorgan Yeomanry number!

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, Tim S said:

His Name: Francis Joseph Stewart (known as Frank)

His service number: On his medals are 6407 Welsh R. On his medal card are 6407 Welsh R and 54474 14th Welsh R.

I don't know if one of these numbers is his previous Glamorgan Yeomanry number!

When was he born ?

Craig

[Mark1959]

If not read already this thread may be of interest

 

[Mark1959]

There is an article in Nottingham and Midland Catholic News 16 December 1916 regarding brothers James who was in the RGA, Joseph - Yorks and Lancs and Frank who "joined the Glamorgan Yeomanry 13 months ago" and "went to the front last week". This gives a Cardiff address. This says Joseph was wounded 4 times and was recovering from a wound in Sunderland. An unnamed brother who joined the Black Watch "18 months ago" - wounded and had shell shock and had been discharged. It says their Dad was an ex-Sgt Major - is that the relevant family?

There is a family tree on ancestry that has the relevant MIC and the correct address as per the above article - 9 Brook St - as per 1911 census etc

Western Mail 11 August 1917. In hospital in Birmingham. 8 months in France and before "an instructor in Glamorgan Yeomanry". Again quotes Brook St address

War Office Daily List No.5345 appears as wounded. List dated 23/8/17 so relates to wounding in above article. Home town Cardiff. 

 

Edited 9 May , 2022 by Mark1959

[Tim S]

5 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

When was he born ?

Craig

19th Mar 1894

[Tim S]

5 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

If not read already this thread may be of interest

 

Hi Richard

He wasn't wounded when serving with the Glamorgan Yeomanry. He was wounded whilst serving with the 14th Battalion, 38 Welsh. This was 8 months after he left the Glamorgan Yeomanry.

What I am trying to find out, via documented evidence, is that my Grandfather served with the 3/1st Glamorgan Yeomanry and in particular in Dublin during the 'Up Rising' in 1916, as I was verbal told by my Dad that he did but I have no evidence. For example his joining and leaving documents for the 3/1st. That type of thing.

[Tim S]

5 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

There is an article in Nottingham and Midland Catholic News 16 December 1916 regarding brothers James who was in the RGA, Joseph - Yorks and Lancs and Frank who "joined the Glamorgan Yeomanry 13 months ago" and "went to the front last week". This gives a Cardiff adress. This says Joseph was wounded 4 times and was recovering from a wound in Sunderland. An unnamed brother who joined the Black Watch "18 months ago" - wounded and had shell shock and had been discharged. It says their Dad was an ex-Sgt Major - is that the relevant family?

There is a family tree on ancestry that has the relevant MIC and the correct address as per the above article - 9 Brook St - as per 1911 census etc

Western Mail 11 August 1917. In hospital in Birmingham. 8 months in France and before "an instructor in Glamorgan Yeomanry". Again quotes Brook St address

War Office Daily List No.5345 appears as wounded. List dated 23/8/17 so relates to wounding in above article. Home town Cardiff. 

 

Hi Mark

Thanks for taking the time to look for those newspaper articles. It was these exact articles that I found via 'Find My Pass' newspaper search about a week ago. It was these articles that prompted me to ask the forum if anyone knew where to find my Grandfather's Glamorgan Yeomanry service documents (if they exist). Or a Glamorgan Yeomanry Museum.

Yes, all the newspaper articles refer to my Grandfather, his brother's (my grand Uncles) and their Dad, the ex Sgt Major (my Great Grandfather).

I discovered another newspaper article about the same time, detailing a letter which Joe (York & Lancs) wrote to his sister from his hospital bed, with his left (wrong) hand, detailing how he earned one of his 4 wound stripes, where he was shot twice in the right arm and once in the thigh on a bombing grenade trench raid. The letter said that he removed the thigh bullet himself. I have a picture of him in uniform with his 4 wound stripes on his left cuff/sleeve.

The family tree you refer to on Ancestry might be mine or my 2nd cousin's.

[johntaylor]

Hi Tim,

Regarding when your grandfather was wounded, you should focus your inquiries on 14th Bn Welsh Regiment, which was in 114th Brigade in 38th Division, as the medal records show this was his unit. The War Diary is available here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354160 . Unfortunately this only lists officer casualties by name, as was normal, but it seems almost certain that Corporal Stewart was wounded on July 31-Aug 1 1917 (i.e. the first day of the Third Battle of Ypres) when 14th Bn Welsh Regiment were in action. There is a detailed account of the attack in the War Diary which says "No of other rank casualties 185". This would tie in with him being repatriated to Britain and in hospital in Birmingham by Aug 11.

Regarding his previous service with the Glamorgan Yeomanry, I haven't seen any mention of this in the available official records, so without a service record it may well be that the only evidence for this can be found in newspaper articles and your family memories. A War Diary was normally kept only when a unit went overseas, so there probably isn't one for 3/1st Glamorgan Yeomanry (Ireland then being part of the UK). Having said that, there seems to be one here for 2/1st  Glamorganshire Yeomanry in Oct 1915-Feb 1916 when I believe they were still at home: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4558613 There is also one for 1/1st Bn in Mar-Dec 1916 when they were in Egypt: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557580

As the war went on, the authorities increasingly drew on the Glamorgan Yeomanry as a source of manpower for the Welsh Regiment - this was a common experience reflecting the overwhelming demand for infantry on the Western Front. Therefore it wouldn't have been unusual for an experienced mounted soldier like Corporal Stewart to find himself transferred into an infantry battalion in this way.

Regarding a regimental museum, I also drew a blank but would suggest contacting three museums to see if they have any information about the Glamorgan Yeomanry :

Royal Welsh Museum in Brecon (as mentioned by Paul above)

Firing Line - The Museum of the Welsh Soldier in Cardiff (this also covers The Welsh Regiment): https://cardiffcastlemuseum.org.uk/museum/

Castlemartin Yeomanry Museum (this covers their sister regiment, the Pembroke Yeomanry so they may be able to tell you something): https://www.theogilbymuster.com/castlemartin_yeomanry_collection

I'd be interested to know what they say!

Good luck,

John

 

Edited 6 May , 2022 by johntaylor

[Tim S]

24 minutes ago, johntaylor said:

Hi Tim,

Regarding when your grandfather was wounded, you should focus your inquiries on 14th Bn Welsh Regiment, which was in 114th Brigade in 38th Division, as the medal records show this was his unit. The War Diary is available here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354160 . Unfortunately this only lists officer casualties by name, as was normal, but it seems almost certain that Corporal Stewart was wounded on July 31-Aug 1 1917 (i.e. the first day of the Third Battle of Ypres) when 14th Bn Welsh Regiment were in action. There is a detailed account of the attack in the War Diary which says "No of other rank casualties 185". This would tie in with him being repatriated to Britain and in hospital in Birmingham by Aug 11.

Regarding his previous service with the Glamorgan Yeomanry, I haven't seen any mention of this in the available official records, so without a service record it may well be that the only evidence for this can be found in newspaper articles and your family memories. A War Diary was normally kept only when a unit went overseas, so there probably isn't one for 3/1st Glamorgan Yeomanry (Ireland then being part of the UK). Having said that, there seems to be one here for 2/1st  Glamorganshire Yeomanry in Oct 1915-Feb 1916 when I believe they were still at home: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4558613 There is also one for 1/1st Bn in Mar-Dec 1916 when they were in Egypt: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557580

As the war went on, the authorities increasingly drew on the Glamorgan Yeomanry as a source of manpower for the Welsh Regiment - this was a common experience reflecting the overwhelming demand for infantry on the Western Front. Therefore it wouldn't have been unusual for an experienced mounted soldier like Corporal Stewart to find himself transferred into an infantry battalion in this way.

Regarding a regimental museum, I also drew a blank but would suggest contacting three museums to see if they have any information about the Glamorgan Yeomanry :

Royal Welsh Museum in Brecon (as mentioned by Paul above)

Firing Line - The Museum of the Welsh Soldier in Cardiff (this also covers The Welsh Regiment): https://cardiffcastlemuseum.org.uk/museum/

Castlemartin Yeomanry Museum (this covers their sister regiment, the Pembroke Yeomanry so they may be able to tell you something): https://www.theogilbymuster.com/castlemartin_yeomanry_collection

I'd be interested to know what they say!

Good luck,

John

 

Hi John

Thank you very much for all your links and information. I will go through them one at a time.

I will also be contacting the Museums you suggested, and will keep this 'thread' informed regarding my finding.

Tim 

[johntaylor]

Thanks Tim - I'll be interested to hear what they say about this, as the Glamorgan Yeomanry records must have ended up somewhere. It's also worth checking the two books mentioned above to see if they give any information on sources.

There is another book called "Swansea Pals: A History of 14th (Service) Battalion, The Welsh Regiment in the Great War" by By Bernard Lewis which should tell you more about his time in the Welsh Regiment, including the Battle of Passchendaele in which he was wounded: http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Swansea-Pals-Paperback/p/917

All the best,

John

Edited 6 May , 2022 by johntaylor

[pjwmacro]

On 05/05/2022 at 15:29, Tim S said:

look forward to your reply

Hi Tim

I think @johntaylorand @Mark1959have probably given you further detail on the answers I gave. I don't think I can add anything further at this stage. As has been mentioned, you are unlikely to find non officer casualties mentioned in war diaries - but always worth looking!

Regards, Paul 

[Tim S]

Hi Paul

I have ordered the two books that you mentioned and look forward to reading them. I will also be contacting the various museums mentioned and will keep this forum informed of my findings.

Tim