Determining exact location of a wounding in 63rd RND battle

[Neilo19]

Hello All,

My grandfather was in the Hawke battalion of the 63rd RND and was wounded on 25th August 1918 .

According to the war diaries of his battalion - There were 2 potential battles one was in Loupart Wood and 2 companies were attacked (This is where Lt Co Oswald Wainwright fell ) but the other 2 companies made it through the wood to La Barque where another skirmish occurred with casualties .

I haven't been able to determine if my grandfather was in A B C or D company from his service record - is there a way of filtering down as to what company he may have been with in his time on the front line and in those battles ??

 

Many thanks

[horatio2]

Possibly. Who was he (name, number)?

[Neilo19]

His name was Asa Kent R1537

[Gunner 87]

1 hour ago, Neilo19 said:

His name was Asa Kent R1537

Nelio19, do you have the full breakdown of his record from FMP? There is a reference number that may suggest he was in C Company. I am no expert here but just read through the record... C/1676 "Wounded" 25.8.18. It appears there is a different reference number for each incident.

@RNCVR

@horatio2

Edited 29 April , 2022 by Gunner 87

[Gunner 87]

The reference C/1440 is used before "Wounded' 30.12.17 .... I'm sure one of our experts will explain this but it appears he gets a reference number unique to the Company he is serving in..

Edited 29 April , 2022 by Gunner 87

[TEW]

They are Casualty List numbers. I think this sequence was created by the WO from lists sent from AG in the theatre of war and then posted/telegraphed to each regional or unit records office.

That would then eventually filter into the HMSO printed casualty list.

I think offhand there are about 15 C type lists in the Casualty Lists topic, I'll try to remember to check tomorrow but the chances are slim.

TEW

[Gunner 87]

5 minutes ago, TEW said:

They are Casualty List numbers. I think this sequence was created by the WO from lists sent from AG in the theatre of war and then posted/telegraphed to each regional or unit records office.

That would then eventually filter into the HMSO printed casualty list.

I think offhand there are about 15 C type lists in the Casualty Lists topic, I'll try to remember to check tomorrow but the chances are slim.

TEW

Thanks TEW, that puts paid to my theory but makes sense. Appreciate you taking the time to explain it. 

Edited 29 April , 2022 by Gunner 87

[Neilo19]

I really Appreciate all the efforts here so thankyou for your replies - I do have his full RNVR record from the FAAM (advice given to me by this excellent forum) which took a while to get owing to Covid but this doesn't give me any pointers to the company within the Hawke battalion he was attached to at that time unfortunately.

I have visited both sites but I would love to know which site was the actual site of his wounding and I think the only way I can do that is to identify the Companies  - I know that C & D companies met heavy resistance in Loupart wood but A & B companies made it as far as La Barque before they met resistance so if I can identify the actual company I can plot his location accurately 

Thanks agin

Neil

[horatio2]

9 hours ago, Gunner 87 said:

There is a reference number that may suggest he was in C Company.

In any other context a "C/****" could, indeed be a ship's book number (=pay number) showing him in 'C' Company. But, as explained, these entries appear to be Casualty List numbers associated with his woundings, first in Nelson Bn and later in Hawke Bn. At the start of his RND record  there are a couple of 4th Reserve Bn entries marked as "D/847" and these almost certainly show he was in 'D' Coy of that Bn at Blandford Camp.

There remains the possibility that the"C/****" references are to his being in 'C' Coy of both Nelson and Hawke Bns. We may never know.

[TEW]

Here's an example of a C type casualty list, this one is C/1475 dated 17/2/1918. Your C/1440 is dated 30/12/1917 so they've moved on by 35 C lists.

 

 

You may not need to know but for reasons not yet known the C type lists either have another number sequence or are converted to another sequence.

Jackson of Drake Btn. shows on list HA 18106 for 2/1/1918, I suspect his RNVR record has him on a C type list not the HA type. Kent no doubt was also included on a HA list which is probably lost.

Incidentally, there is a MH106 medical record for Kent showing his admission to 149 Field Ambulance 30/12/1917 then evacuated to CCS at Ytres same day. There are some 30 RND Nelson men on the same page and no indication of a company (other infantry frequently do show company). The HA list above also omits company and I'd guess the C type list did as well.

TEW

[horatio2]

1 hour ago, TEW said:

Jackson of Drake Btn. shows on list HA 18106 for 2/1/1918, I suspect his RNVR record has him on a C type list not the HA type

In fact AB Jackson's ADM 339 RND Record Card shows this hospital admission under HA 18106 (received RND Record Office 9 Jan 1918), not as a 'C' List. He has a later report of admission to hospital in UK (Edmonton), which references HA (I think - might be HB?) 10174.

I am most grateful to @TEW for his guidance through this medical maze. All very interesting.

Edited 30 April , 2022 by horatio2

[TEW]

Interesting that the RND record office used or had access to both types of list and could reference either. All a work in progress with these casualty lists and an HB list would fit with an admission to a UK hospital, 10174 would fit with Jan/Feb 1918.

Artillery Records tend to use both list numbers and then add their own!

TEW

[horatio2]

9 minutes ago, TEW said:

an HB list would fit with an admission to a UK hospital, 10174 would fit with Jan/Feb 1918.

His date of admission to Edmonton under HB 10174 was reported as 11 Feb 1918.

AB Jackson was also reported under HA 17795 as admitted 6 Sta Hosp Frevent on 24 Dec 1917 and later under HA 18102 as transferred to 3 AT 2 Jan 1918.

[RNCVR]

I am unable to assist but have enjoyed reading the topic as I know very little about casualties & RND as I never collected to the RND.

[horatio2]

An intersting diversion but, sadly, we have not been able to answer the original question about Hawke Bn companies.

[Neilo19]

Thankyou all so much for trying at least I know if you guys cannot find the answer then I know it is nigh on impossible to discover exactly !!

@TEW - Out of interest you mentioned about the MH106 showing Kent as a casualty and that there were 30 other Nelson casualties on the same page is it possible you can point me in the direction of that piece of info as I dont have that document I have what I thought was the MH106 but it doesnt show that info.

Many thanks again all

Neil 

 

[TEW]

Neil,

The original is on Find my Past. If you got your MH106 from Forces War Records that'll be the same details but only a transcription for his entry, not the bigger picture from the whole page which is almost entirely Nelson men.

TEW

[Colin Guy Vokins]

Hello Neil

Recently reviewing my fathers' field book I came across the attached entries which may answer your original question. My father Sub-Lt Guy Vokins was in command of C Company Hawke Battalion on August 25th. Like your grandfather he was injured during the attack on Loupart Wood. The entry that I copied is in my father's hand writing and has been in the family ever since.

I hope this is of interest

Colin

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, Colin Guy Vokins said:

Recently reviewing my fathers' field book I came across the attached entries which may answer your original question. My father Sub-Lt Guy Vokins was in command of C Company Hawke Battalion on August 25th. Like your grandfather he was injured during the attack on Loupart Wood. The entry that I copied is in my father's hand writing and has been in the family ever since.

Colin,

Welcome to GWF.

An awesome post that think will please the OP.

Guy VOKINS = Guy Charlton VOKINS ? 

If so then this is for you https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31119/supplement/648 

SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 11 JANUARY, 1919

T./Sub-Lt. Guy Charlton Vokins, Hawke Bn., R.N.D., R.N.V.R. He was severely wounded in an attack but rallied his men and captured a machine gun and pushed on till he fell exhausted with loss of blood. Nevertheless, he still tried to crawl forward, but was unable to move. His courage and tenacity inspired his platoon with the greatest dash and determination.

An MC to be proud of.

M

[Neilo19]

Thankyou Colin

This is really interesting I had narrowed it down to C or D company as the A & B companies according to the war diaries were relatively unscathed .

I explored the war diaries for the dates it all happened and I have visited and stood at Loupart Wood where I believe it all took place so if you want a bit more info I am happy to share photos etc 

Thanks again as all this info really is interesting 

Neil 

[horatio2]

18 hours ago, Colin Guy Vokins said:

My father Sub-Lt Guy Vokins was in command of C Company Hawke Battalion on August 25th.

@Colin Guy VokinsMay I ask where you obtained the information that your father was a Hawke Bn. Company Commander on that date? In the RND a Company Commander usually held the rank of Lieutenant (RNVR) (or Lieutenant Commander). It strikes me as a bit unusual that a Sub Lieutenant with less then seven months of commissioned service and only five months service with the Hawkes, should be a Company Commander. His minimal (six weeks) previous battle experience as an Able Seaman with Benbow and Nelson Bns at Gallipoli does not mark him out as being exceptional. The more usual appointment for an officer with his experience would be as a Platoon Commander.

His RND officer's record does not appear in the ADM 339 cards so I cannot confirm his employm,ent there and his ADM 337 RNVR record is unhelpful. He does not rate a mention in Jerrold's RND history but in his Hawke Bn history your father is noted (p.205 and footnote) as a "'C' Company platoon commander".

The notebook extract posted is for No.15 Section of an un-named platoon. Nos.13 to 16 Sections of a Compnay would normally belong to No.4 Platoon. In this case No.4 Platoon of 'C' Coy?

It may be, of course, that Company Command devolved onto your father as a result of battle casualties in the course of the fighting  at Loupart Wood. It would be very helpful to know your other sources.

Edited 2 February , 2023 by horatio2

[Neilo19]

 

FYI - After I got this information I referred to The Hawke Battalion Book by Douglas Jerrold and on Page 208 as there is reference to a C Company Platoon Commander writing about the state of the war at that time "A number of prisoners who showed little inclination to fight several machine guns and some Artillery were captured " and at the foot of page 208 he is identified as that of Sub-lt Vokins "4. Sub- Lieutenant Vokins who gained the military Cross for resolute leading in the fighting four days later on the outskirts of Thilloy "

The battle at Loupart wood did indeed take many casualties including Commander Stuart Jones and his successor Lt-Cdr Oswald Wainright along with 2 other sub-lt -  The info Colin gave  me helped to clarify that he was a most likely a member of C Company as this was from an actual member of that company who fought gallantly in the same battle .

Thanks again for your help everyone 

Neil

[Colin Guy Vokins]

On August 20th 1918 father wrote to his parents to tell them that he would shortly be going into action. An extract from that letter reads

''Time is short. I am in charge of The Company as the company commander is away'' .I have had another look at Douglas Jerold's book with reference to action that took place on August 21st and understand the problem. I have nothing else to support the statement and  was certainly incorrect to link the letter to the events of August 25th,for which my apologies.

Thank you for your interest and helpful advice 

Colin

 

 

 

[Neilo19]

Colin -Your father IS mentioned in Douglas Jerrolds book as I stated above on Page 208 Note 4 (At the bottom of the page)  .

 

I am interested in any info you may have as I am trying to put facts around what happened to my grandfather who did not speak about the war very much at all so you may have a few more nuggets maybe ....

Neil

[Colin Guy Vokins]

Neil - I am pleased that my previous message was useful to you. My father kept a daily diary during his service in Gallipoli but never talked in detail about any of his wartime experiences. His brother told me years ago that he had torn up his diary relating to his time in France. Recently I have been trying to make sense of his field message book which is not in good condition. I am copying pages that are legible prior to revisiting Loupart Wood next month. I would be pleased to send these to you. Maybe someone more expert would glean more from the original.