Frederick Henry Golding, 21 LR (654621) and 10 SWB (263081)

[MikeDeadman]

After WW1 Fred Golding would marry Emily Deadman. He enlisted in Middlesex on 24/2/17.  He served 1 year 72 days including 239 days in France. His medal roll (VM, BWM, SM) have his service as

654621 London Regiment

IBD

263081 MON R Att 10/SWB

263081 MON R Att 10/SWB

263081 MON R Att 15/Coy RE

263081 MON R Att 15/Coy RE

263081 MON R Att 10/SWB

His discharge certificate lists 21st (R) London Regiment and 1st Battn Monm Reg (SWB). He was Discharged as medically unfit (epilepsy) on 6/5/18

I'm not sure of his dates into and from IBD or his attachments to 15 RE.  He was wounded prior to discharge but I have no record of the date of his wounding, or when and to where he was repatriated. 

Grateful for any assistance. Have war diaries but need to be sure I've got the right LR and MON R editions

[ALAN MCMAHON]

Away from Ancestry and FMP- but his Medal Index Card says 2 London Regiment (although it does have a cross next to it). 21 London is Surrey Rifles so he may get a mention in some of the Surrey enlistment records  which are on FindMyPast.    His MIC notes that he has a Silver War Badge, whose records are on Ancestry and this may add a detail or two.

    The War Diary of 15 Royal Engineers  for his period of service is held at The National Archives and currently available to download for free.

[George Rayner]

In his Medal Roll I think it says 151 Coy/RE

George

[ALAN MCMAHON]

14 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

In his Medal Roll I think it says 151 Coy/RE

George

   Thanks George.  Can only fly with the flight plan provided!   It also looks like 2nd London, so Surrey records will not help

As it is, 151 RE has a war diary as well:

[George Rayner]

Agreed

[MikeDeadman]

53 minutes ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

   Thanks George.  Can only fly with the flight plan provided!   It also looks like 2nd London, so Surrey records will not help

As it is, 151 RE has a war diary as well:

Yes, my mistake in transcribing. 151 RE  it is

[MikeDeadman]

1 hour ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

   Thanks George.  Can only fly with the flight plan provided!   It also looks like 2nd London, so Surrey records will not help

As it is, 151 RE has a war diary as well:

His discharge certificate definitely indicates 21 london

[ALAN MCMAHON]

3 hours ago, MikeDeadman said:

His discharge certificate definitely indicates 21 london

Good- the matter may be settled by the various Surrey records on FMP.   

[Allan1892]

5 hours ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

His MIC notes that he has a Silver War Badge, whose records are on Ancestry and this may add a detail or two.

SWB image attached, courtesy of Ancestry

[MikeDeadman]

10 minutes ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

Good- the matter may be settled by the various Surrey records on FMP.   

I don't have FMP but will take a month's subscription to do a "blitz" on all the family members. Does FMP have more or similar info to Ancestry? 

Would either give me the date of wounding, thence the location? 

[ALAN MCMAHON]

43 minutes ago, MikeDeadman said:

I don't have FMP but will take a month's subscription to do a "blitz" on all the family members. Does FMP have more or similar info to Ancestry? 

Would either give me the date of wounding, thence the location? 

     Or get to a public library that has FMP.  Ancestry and FMP overlap in most part but each has records series that the other does not.  Date of wounding has several possibilities:

1)   Medical records for British Army on FMP

2)  Daily/Weekly Casualty Lists. Weekly casualty lists are on British Newspaper Archive but I cannot spot him by name or either of his serial numbers there.

(I suspect he was not badly wounded- if transferred to RE, then he could have been treated in France.  Most wounded were not brought back to the UK)

    If there is a date for wounding, then it is usually reported some 2-3 weeks in arrears in the Press- after that, start looking at the war diary-it is usually straightforward to see the action in which injury or death took place)

The 1911 census may help- Did he have a "transferrable skill" that the Royal Engineers would want?  My experience of  unfit men (wounds or illness) is that they tended to go to the Army Service Corps, especially if they had a skill that helped support the army- tailoring, shoe repairs,etc.

[Gunner 87]

FMP / IWM have this photograph of Frederick and information that he was treated at Wharncliffe Hospital, Sheffield which it states was the mentally ill. I have attached the thumbnail as the enlarge photo was very blurred. 

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1369968

 

Edited 9 April by Gunner 87

[George Rayner]

Does your FH Golding have a birth date of 11.6.1897?

George

[MikeDeadman]

49 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Does your FH Golding have a birth date of 11.6.1897?

George

Yes, registered Brenchly

[MikeDeadman]

1 hour ago, Gunner 87 said:

FMP / IWM have this photograph of Frederick and information that he was treated at Wharncliffe Hospital, Sheffield which it states was the mentally ill. I have attached the thumbnail as the enlarge photo was very blurred. 

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1369968

 

Yes, my cousin, his grand daughter posted that

[Allan1892]

2 hours ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

1)   Medical records for British Army on FMP

Nothing coming up with a search on his name or service numbers

[MikeDeadman]

42 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

Nothing coming up with a search on his name or service numbers

Thanks Alan, his discharge mentions epilepsy which would fit with his treatment in Sheffield and his final day's at Stone House, near Gravesend, which was a hospital for mental illness. If I trawl through the RE diaries will I be likely to pin down his attachment as arrival from Monmouth or SWB? 

M

[George Rayner]

Thanks for birth place…could you share the date please?

George

[MikeDeadman]

22 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Thanks for birth place…could you share the date please?

George

11.6.97

Sorry George, thought I'd sent it

Mike

[ALAN MCMAHON]

1 hour ago, MikeDeadman said:

Thanks Alan, his discharge mentions epilepsy which would fit with his treatment in Sheffield and his final day's at Stone House, near Gravesend, which was a hospital for mental illness. If I trawl through the RE diaries will I be likely to pin down his attachment as arrival from Monmouth or SWB? 

M

     Unlikely on both.  The best war diaries usually do is  briefly give a mention -something like "Draft 50  OR".   The best the war diary can do is give an indication as to what the RE company was actually doing- building road, repairing bridges,etc- and here he pre-war employment may give a clue. RE were quite selective-compared to Labour Corps and ASC as to who they took, even in the latter stages of the war.

It may be worth attacking the problem from the other side-  whether there are any surviving records  for the hospitals in Sheffield or Gravesend.   Even with 100 year closure, there might be something available.   

Update-  the website "Historic Hospitals" says the records of the hospital, known latterly as "the Residence" are held by London Metropolitan Archives.

The surviving archives of the hospital are in the London Metropolitan Archives – ref: CLA/001

Edited 9 April by ALAN MCMAHON

[ALAN MCMAHON]

As Stone House was a City of London hospital, LMA has a fair few records.  The group description for "patient records" says:

PATIENT RECORDS

Date of Creation:

1866 - 1997

Reference Code:

CLA/001/B

From Collection:

CITY OF LONDON MENTAL HOSPITAL {LATER STONE HOUSE HOSPITAL}

Scope and Content:

Includes registers, indexes and patient case papers regarding admission, discharge, death, burial, post-mortems, mechanical restraint and seclusion, medical registers and private and rate-aided civil registers.

Classification:HOSPITALS

Site Location:London Metropolitan Archives

    Normally, there would be an admissions register- which would probably give most of the details you could reasonably want.  It.s not a great struggle if you are down Gravesend Way to get to LMA -  Angel tube or Farringdon

[MikeDeadman]

6 minutes ago, ALAN MCMAHON said:

As Stone House was a City of London hospital, LMA has a fair few records.  The group description for "patient records" says:

PATIENT RECORDS

Date of Creation:

1866 - 1997

Reference Code:

CLA/001/B

From Collection:

CITY OF LONDON MENTAL HOSPITAL {LATER STONE HOUSE HOSPITAL}

Scope and Content:

Includes registers, indexes and patient case papers regarding admission, discharge, death, burial, post-mortems, mechanical restraint and seclusion, medical registers and private and rate-aided civil registers.

Classification:HOSPITALS

Site Location:London Metropolitan Archives

    Normally, there would be an admissions register- which would probably give most of the details you could reasonably want.  It.s not a great struggle if you are down Gravesend Way to get to LMA -  Angel tube or Farringdon

Thanks Alan. I'm in Wales these  days but Fred's grandaughter is in Gravesend and could make the trip up

[MikeDeadman]

I'm a bit confused about who Fred Golding served with after enlisting on 24 February 1917. His number is 654621 but he is variously given as 2nd or 21st London Regiment on FWR or on his papers of discharge. Is it 2nd R, or 21st (Surrey Rifles) or is it 2/21 (East Surrey)? 

[Gunner 87]

On 10/04/2022 at 07:07, MikeDeadman said:

I'm a bit confused about who Fred Golding served with after enlisting on 24 February 1917. His number is 654621 but he is variously given as 2nd or 21st London Regiment on FWR or on his papers of discharge. Is it 2nd R, or 21st (Surrey Rifles) or is it 2/21 (East Surrey)? 

On Frederick's discharge papers it lists 21st (Reserve), London Regiment. However on the Medal Index Card (MIC) and Medal Roll for the Victory Medal and British War Medal it lists 2nd Battalion London Regiment. Looking at the service numbers on the Medal Roll the other soldiers are from the 21st (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles) so the MIC and MR are probably marked up incorrectly. I would say that Frederick first served in the 21st London Regiment. 

[ALAN MCMAHON]

3 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

On Frederick's discharge papers it lists 21st (Reserve), London Regiment. However on the Medal Index Card (MIC) and Medal Roll for the Victory Medal and British War Medal it lists 2nd Battalion London Regiment. Looking at the service numbers on the Medal Roll the other soldiers are from the 21st (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles) so the MIC and MR are probably marked up incorrectly. I would say that Frederick first served in the 21st London Regiment. 

   Suggests he should be on the Surrey Enlistment records on FMP