Repair 1918 Webley

[manofallseasons]

I came across a 1918 Webley Mark VI revolver when going through my dad's things. There is no rust on it but a friend told me the cylinder wiggles and the revolver would not be safe to fire as it may not line up correctly. Looking at pictures of the parts, I can only see two places that, if worn, might allow the cylinder to wiggle. One is the Extractor Cam and the other is a little 'catch' that sticks out and must hit the cam. 

Anyone have any ideas if I should hang the revolver on the wall, or can it be fixed? I'd love if it could be fixed but would need some ideas where to send it in the States. 

My dad had a nice box of bullets for it I would need to get rid of if the gun is no longer any use. 

Thanks for any ideas. 

[reese williams]

Your friend is not as knowledgeable as he would have you think. Webleys are a bit different from most revolvers regarding cylinder lock up. The cylinder on a Webley only locks tight when the hammer is at full cock and the hammer is pulled. To test, making sure the gun is unloaded, hold the gun in your right hand and cock the hammer. Let the gun roll back in your hand a bit so you can hook your thumb over the spur of the hammer and pull the trigger with your index finger. While holding the hammer and trigger both back, with your left hand try to rotating the cylinder back and forth. It should not move or only minutely. If the cylinder locks up with this test you're good to go.  The looseness in the cylinder in other positions is something somewhat unique to Webleys so your friend can be forgiven if he's not familiar with them.

If the cylinder on your Webley has been shaved for 45 ACP cartridges DO NOT for any reason fire them in your gun. Factory loaded 45 ACP ammunition is grossly overpressure for Webleys and can damage your gun. up to potentially turning the cylinder into a hand grenade. If you're not sure about the condition post a picture taken directly from the side, normally it is apparent when you can see the gap between the back of the cylinder and the recoil shield. 

[manofallseasons]

Thanks for your knowledgable advice! I was going to post 6 photos but only two will work here. It is the middle of winter here in Wisconsin and I have no access for a place to shoot the pistol so decided to carefully do what you suggested to see if the cylinder locked (without loading a bullet). The cylinder was tight as a drum with absolutely no movement. I released everything slowly and carefully and hopefully did not hurt the gun. I'm not sure on the ammunition since we mostly shoot shotguns and 22 calibur rifles here and I am not experienced with other firearms.

My great uncle was in WWI in the trenches so perhaps this was originally his revolver.

Thanks again for you help!   Dean

[peregrinvs]

It’s been converted to fire .45 ACP ammunition. Here’s what it originally fired:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.455_Webley

[reese williams]

As posted above, it has been converted to 45 ACP. The cartridges you show are 45 ACP, the metal devices holding the rounds together are known as half-moon clips. That arrangement was developed in WWI to allow the use of ammunition designed for a semi-automatic pistol (the Colt M1911) to function in a revolver. Your Webley has probably been shot with that ammunition, many were but I don't recommend doing it any more.  There are some options for ammunition but most involve reloading ot finding someone who will reload for you. I'm not sure of forum regulations regarding posting reloading information and don't want to cause this thread to be locked, so PM me and I'll be glad to discuss the various ways to feed your Webley.

Your Webley appears to have the "sold out of service" mark indicating it was surplussed. A large number of Webleys were sold off by the British in the 1950's and imported into the US. Ammunition, however, was not and .455 Webley ammo was virtually unobtainable so some clever boy came up with the idea of shaving the back off the cylinder so the 45 ACP / half-moon clip arrangement that had been used on American revolvers would work. They didn't bother to think about it being a good idea, it was and idea that would sell revolvers. 45 ACP being a primary US military small arm ammunition was readily available and many Webleys got trimmed. I suspect that sometime in the 1950's was when the gun came into your family. If your great uncle was a US soldier he would never have been issued a Webley. 

Edited 24 February , 2022 by reese williams

[manofallseasons]

I sent a message but am not sure if it is still on the site. My email is dad@mwt.net if you ever want to get hold of me. Not sure if giving an email is permitted here.

[GWF1967]

1 hour ago, manofallseasons said:

I sent a message but am not sure if it is still on the site. My email is dad@mwt.net if you ever want to get hold of me. Not sure if giving an email is permitted here.

Permitted, but posting your email address on the forum  means you’re likely to be contacted by a Nigerian Prince or two, with investment opportunities. 

[manofallseasons]

Gave me a good laugh. I'll be careful! 

[Old War Skule]

To add to what Reese said above, the chamber pressure of the .455 is about 13,000 psi, whereas the .45 ACP generates about 19,500 psi, the equivalent of a proof load in the .455.  If you want to shoot it, there are two ways to approach it.  One is to find an uncut cylinder in .455 and replace the original cylinder.  Or, you can reload .45 Auto Rim cases to .455 pressures.  Either will work, assuming the revolver is in good condition.  Groove diameter in the .45 ACP is usually .451", and the .455 is what it says, .455".  I'd use a soft lead bullet to hopefully expand and engage the rifling.

[MikB]

24 minutes ago, Old War Skule said:

To add to what Reese said above, the chamber pressure of the .455 is about 13,000 psi, whereas the .45 ACP generates about 19,500 psi, the equivalent of a proof load in the .455.  If you want to shoot it, there are two ways to approach it.  One is to find an uncut cylinder in .455 and replace the original cylinder.  Or, you can reload .45 Auto Rim cases to .455 pressures.  Either will work, assuming the revolver is in good condition.  Groove diameter in the .45 ACP is usually .451", and the .455 is what it says, .455".  I'd use a soft lead bullet to hopefully expand and engage the rifling.

You could also find a machinist to make you special moon-clips to fit original .455 Mk.II ball - which I believe Fiocchi still manufacture - and re-correct the headspace. But that's only practical if you can source both the ammunition and the machinist.

Edited 24 February , 2022 by MikB

[manofallseasons]

Considering I live in the middle of nowhere, I will now have to search for the properly loaded bullets. Thank you all for your patience with me and great answers!  Dean

[SteyrMaster]

I happen to have a nearly identical 1918 shaved Webley Mark VI.  As Reese suggests, the WWI US Army issue S&W and Colt 1917 revolvers were no doubt the inspiration for this mangling of the Webleys. The 1917s were well engineered to take the standard .45 ACP (used by the M1911 and subguns), also using the half-moon clips. The extra head-space and clips were necessary to keep the the rimless auto cartridges from slipping through the cylinder. They function flawlessly and had the additional quick loading capability by allowing the soldier to carry preloaded half moon clips in a belt pouch. The 1917s were ordered to supplement the supply of M1911s to the troops. As usual, with Great War guns, they were kept in use through WWII and even saw use in Vietnam.

[manofallseasons]

Nice to know! As far as I can figure out, I will have to have my bullets reloaded with a bit less charge. I'll also see if the gun closes up completely after inserting the bullet clips.

I'm really impressed at how helpful everyone has been and am grateful my lack of knowledge hasn't offended anyone!

Dean

[reese williams]

The S&W M1917s had stepped chambers so that the 45 ACP cartridges would headspace on the case mouth as they do in a semi-automatic. That means the S&W M1917 can be loaded and fired without the half-moon clips although the empty cases will not eject, they have to be pushed out individually from the front of the cylinder. Colt M1917s did not have the stepped cylinder so if loaded without the clip the hammer blow would just drive the round further into the cylinder and not fire the round. Joseph Wesson of S&W invented and patented the clips but S&W allowed Colt use of the patent in aid of the war effort.