Help to identify shoulder title please

[Simon J Emmerson]

Hi Folks  A long shot I know. I'm trying to identify this chaps Regiment. I was wondering if anyone recognised the Title Style to a certain Rifle Battalion. Unfortunately the Battalion number is missing from his shoulder title. The reverse of the postcard is blank too so not much to go on. 

Regards Simon 

[mancpal]

It looks to end in shire with the territorial T above. What about his buttons?

Simon

[Simon J Emmerson]

10 minutes ago, mancpal said:

It looks to end in shire with the territorial T above. What about his buttons?

Simon

Hi Simon his buttons are standard Rifle buttons with a Bugle on them. 

Simon 

[FROGSMILE]

I believe it’s the 5th Battalion Prince of Wales’s Volunteers  (South Lancashire Regiment) T.F. Simon.  The battalion wore a blackened cap badge with the word EGYPT missing from beneath the Sphinx along with blackened, rifles pattern buttons.  See: https://www.greatwarforum.org/search/?q=“”5th South Lancashire””&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy&search_and_or=and&search_in=titles

 

Edited 17 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[AOK4]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I believe it’s the 5th T.F. Battalion South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales’s Volunteers), Simon.  The battalion wore a blackened cap badge with the word EGYPT missing from beneath the Sphinx along with blackened, rifles pattern buttons.  See: https://www.greatwarforum.org/search/?q=“”5th South Lancashire””&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy&search_and_or=and&search_in=titles

 

 

 

 

I think the shoulder title in the first pic has a longer text.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

I think the shoulder title in the first pic has a longer text.

Thank you Jan, it’s certainly worth examining further.  The key aspect is to match shoulder titles ending in SHIRE with regiments that actually had a TF battalion styled as Rifles.  Only a few regiments had long titles with the County itself in full (but not any compass orientation).  These we’re Lancashire, Worcestershire, Warwickshire, Northamptonshire, Monmouthshire.  Of these the latter did have some battalions styled as rifles.  Of the three battalions (each of three lines) the 1st Battalion took trouble to equip their men with black buttons (and white metal badge), but the other two did not.

@Simon J Emmerson: knowing of your past interest in Welsh units especially, does a Monmouthshire connection seem likely given the provenance of the photo?  It certainly seems the leading contender.  I can find no rifles styled battalions in the other regiments with long SHIRE titles that I mentioned.  It suggests that your photo probably shows a soldier of 1st Monmouthshire.

Edited 17 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Simon J Emmerson]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you Jan, it’s certainly worth examining further.  The key aspect is to match shoulder titles ending in SHIRE with regiments that actually had a TF battalion styled as Rifles.  Only a few regiments had long titles with the County itself in full (but not any compass orientation).  These we’re Lancashire, Worcestershire, Warwickshire, Northamptonshire, Monmouthshire.  Of these the latter did have some battalions styled as rifles.  Of the three battalions (each of three lines) the 1st Battalion took trouble to equip their men with black buttons (and white metal badge), but the other two did not.

@Simon J Emmerson: knowing of your past interest in Welsh units especially, does a Monmouthshire connection seem likely given the provenance of the photo?  It certainly seems the leading contender.  I can find no rifles styled battalions in the other regiments with long SHIRE titles that I mentioned.  It suggests that your photo probably shows a soldier of 1st Monmouthshire.

Many thanks Gents for your valuable time and responses. It's definitely got me stumped. 

[CorporalPunishment]

Let's not overlook the Buckinghamshire Battalion, OBLI. They wore the T over BUCKINGHAMSHIRE titles.   Pete.

[Simon J Emmerson]

2 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Let's not overlook the Buckinghamshire Battalion, OBLI. They wore the T over BUCKINGHAMSHIRE titles.   Pete.

Hi Pete  yes  forgot about them too. 

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Simon J Emmerson said:

Hi Pete  yes  forgot about them too. 

Yes they’re another TF only county like the Monmouthshires.  Definitely no units with black buttons though so didn’t seem relevant earlier when considering the options, as explained.  I’ve looked into the other counties too, but can’t find any units that followed the rifles style with black buttons.

Edited 17 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Simon J Emmerson]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes they’re another TF only county like the Monmouthshires.  Definitely no units with black buttons though so didn’t seem relevant earlier when considering the options.  I’ve looked into the other counties too, but can’t find any others that followed the rifles style with black buttons.

I've looked and looked at the shoulder title to make sure it is a Shire & not Rifles. 

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Simon J Emmerson said:

I've looked and looked at the shoulder title to make sure it is a Shire & not Rifles. 

It’s definitely SHIRE, I don’t think that’s in any doubt Simon, I can make out the letters quite clearly.  I also can’t find any British WW1 titles with the words RIFLES.  They’re usually very short, e.g. KRR, RB, SR, RIR.  Not even the London’s use RIFLES. The rest, such as Monmouthshire’s, all use a county title, as per their regular parents where they have them (such as with Leeds and Robin Hood Rifles).

By a process of elimination, and in agreement with AOK4’s comment about the apparent length of the title, I don’t think it can be any other, but 1st Monmouthshire in this case.  Out of interest, did you obtain it in Wales?

Edited 17 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Alan24]

Would the Leeds Rifles have been W.Yorks or W.Yorkshire?

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes they’re another TF only county like the Monmouthshires.  Definitely no units with black buttons though so didn’t seem relevant earlier when considering the options, as explained.  I’ve looked into the other counties too, but can’t find any units that followed the rifles style with black buttons.

The Bucks Battalion did wear black buttons.    Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The Bucks Battalion did wear black buttons.    Pete.

Yes they did Pete, you’re absolutely right.  Don’t know why that slipped my mind given that I’ve posted about it in past years here.  I hope it’s not a first sign of more serious memory loss. 
It does look as if it might be our man too.  It’s a pity we can’t quite make out the beginning of the title.

Edited 17 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

14 hours ago, Alan24 said:

Would the Leeds Rifles have been W.Yorks or W.Yorkshire?

I’ve just managed to find one Alan and to my surprise there was a period when it had W.York and Leeds Rifles below.  I enclose a photo of the first one I’ve ever seen outside of Westlake’s seminal book on shoulder titles.

Edited 18 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Alan24]

18 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve just managed to find one Alan and to my surprise there was a period when it had W.York and Leeds Rifles below.  I enclose a photo of the first one I’ve ever seen outside of Westlake’s seminal book on shoulder titles.

Thanks for digging that out FS. 

That would be a very nice piece to own.

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

Thanks for digging that out FS. 

That would be a very nice piece to own.

Yes it’s extremely rare Alan, and of course fetches a premium accordingly.  Things that once could have been collected for a few pence are now hundreds of pounds.  I’d completely forgotten about the word Rifles in full on this particular title.  The TF did have quite a number of these unique and sometimes (as in this case) rather wordy titles.

Edited 18 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE