Which regiment

[Ian Mennell]

When clearing my parents house found these 3 photos in a envelop addressed to my farther don't no nothing about . What regiments are they I believe they are from Yorkshire

[Andrew Upton]

15 minutes ago, Ian Mennell said:

When clearing my parents house found these 3 photos in a envelop addressed to my farther don't no nothing about . What regiments are they I believe they are from Yorkshire

The first two appear to be Army Service Corps, whilst the other is the East Riding Yeomanry:

 

Edited 13 February , 2022 by Andrew Upton

[FROGSMILE]

The East Riding men are dually qualified as bandsmen and trumpeters, as indicated by their arm badges.  It is unusual to wear both badges and wasn’t generally permitted in regular units.  The regimental shoulder title changed between the 2nd Boer War and WW1.

 

Edited 15 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

Welcome to the GWF Ian. 

Do any of the following names ring any ancestral bells?

Walter Mennell, Alfred Mennell, Joseph Mennell, Albert Mennell or Herbert Mennell.

[Ian Mennell]

No but I don't no any of my grate grandads brothers names great grandad was John Mennell. The spelling of Mennell is correct. Just looked at family tree and there is a Herbert Mennell 14-1-1877. My gran mothers name was Woodall 1 of 16 in the family 

[TullochArd]

I'd follow up on Herbert if I were you Ian.  As Herbert was born in 1877 that would put him at around 37 on the outbreak of War.   The more mature ASC soldier on your photo is possibly around that age.  A starter therefore might be T4/040784 Herbert G. Mennell ASC.  Good luck.

Edited 14 February , 2022 by TullochArd

[Ian Mennell]

Thank's

[nfh249]

Hi Ian,

I've checked my database of the members of the East Riding Yeomanry and there's no Mennells in there.

Cheers,

Neil

[TullochArd]

1 hour ago, nfh249 said:

Hi Ian,

I've checked my database of the members of the East Riding Yeomanry and there's no Mennells in there.

Cheers,

Neil

"My gran mothers name was Woodall 1 of 16 in the family"

............. anticipating Ian will ask this question ................. any Woodalls in there Neil?

 

Edited 14 February , 2022 by TullochArd

[nfh249]

I have one Woodall:

Frank Woodhall, butcher, enlisted Hull 31/5/1915 aged 19 yrs 1 month (see below), embodied for service 31/5/15 at East Riding Yeomanry Depot, Hull, Regimental No. 2107.  Transferred to the third-line 3/1st ERY on 30/6/1915, subsequently discharged under King's Regs 392 VI (a) on 8/10/1915.  KR VI (a) is for lying about your age on enlistment, so he would have been underage.

As FROGSMILE noted above, the Regimental shoulder title 'ERYIY' was phased out after 1908 (on the disbanding of the Imperial Yeomanry and the formation of the Territorial Force), after that they would have worn the three-tiered 'T / Y / EAST RIDING' title so that dates the photos to pre-war, so I doubt Frank is one of the subjects of the photographs.  

Cheers,

Neil

 

[Ian Mennell]

Thanks I will have to search my family tree for a connection 

[Andrew Upton]

6 hours ago, nfh249 said:

As FROGSMILE noted above, the Regimental shoulder title 'ERYIY' was phased out after 1908 (on the disbanding of the Imperial Yeomanry and the formation of the Territorial Force), after that they would have worn the three-tiered 'T / Y / EAST RIDING' title so that dates the photos to pre-war, so I doubt Frank is one of the subjects of the photographs.  

There is a slight problem to contend with in the shoulder titles vs. photograph dating area though, as the chap is clearly wearing the belt off the 1908 Pattern Equipment as well. Whilst this would initially seem not to be a problem most of the newly converted/formed Territorial soldiers would have made do with whatever older pattern equipment they already had on hand, or the cast off 1903 Equipment from the Regulars as webbing replaced it. Mills did supply a simplified/cheaper version of the 1908 Equipment aimed at the Territorial market, but even then only the better off units would have been able to make the change quickly. I suspect the picture was taken at least a couple of years after 1908, and he has simply managed to retain his older pattern shoulder titles:

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/1908_territorial_force.html

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/pics/territorial_force/1908_territorial_force_introduction.html

Edited 15 February , 2022 by Andrew Upton

[TullochArd]

11 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

.......... "the chap is clearly wearing the belt off the 1908 Pattern Equipment" ........ "I suspect the picture was taken at least a couple of years after 1908, and he has simply managed to retain his older pattern shoulder titles"

An astute observation and a fair comment Andrew.  The British Army has long been known to maintain the "Golden Thread" of antecedant connection by informally treating certain appointments to the contents of the QMs buckshee cupboard in the interests of smartness and continuity ....... the most common beneficiaries being Bandsman and Musicians. 

[FROGSMILE]

Andrew raises an intriguing point about the possibility of regulars passing on obsolescent equipment to Territorial Force (TF) units.  I know that that was certainly the case between regulars and Special Reserve (and before that Militia from the 1880s onward), but I don’t know whether that was the case with the TF, as the responsibility for equipping them lay outwith the War Office and sat instead with the County Associations of the Territorial Force. As I understand it there was minimal coordination between the two.

From 1916 and the Military Service Act, the War Office took on responsibility for equipping the TF units, and released the County Associations from that responsibility.  After the war the TF stood down for a period and then the Territorial Army (TA) was formed in its place.  From the outset the relationship between the regular and TA was more coherent and the War Office was responsible for equipping them both, and also coordinating the passing on of obsolescent equipment from one to the other, including special status afforded to high readiness TA units, who accordingly received up-to-date equipment more quickly. 

Edited 15 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[nfh249]

Well I've been through my photo archive and this example (dated 1917) confirms that the straight 'ERYIY' titles were still in use by some at that point (this one is 2/1st ERY) and also the 1908 pattern belt.  There are several others with this arrangement of insignia, but unfortunately they are not dated.

Cheers,

Neil

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, nfh249 said:

Well I've been through my photo archive and this example (dated 1917) confirms that the straight 'ERYIY' titles were still in use by some at that point (this one is 2/1st ERY) and also the 1908 pattern belt.  There are several others with this arrangement of insignia, but unfortunately they are not dated.

Cheers,

Neil

Yes it would have taken time for new shoulder titles to be issued, not least because there was usually a time honoured wasting out clause with new insignia along the lines that old patterns were to be worn out and not simply withdrawn. 

[Andrew Upton]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Andrew raises an intriguing point about the possibility of regulars passing on obsolescent equipment to Territorial Force (TF) units.  I know that that was certainly the case between regulars and Special Reserve (and before that Militia from the 1880s onward), but I don’t know whether that was the case with the TF, as the responsibility for equipping them lay outwith the War Office and sat instead with the County Associations of the Territorial Force. As I understand it there was minimal coordination between the two...

This was in the second link I posted:

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/pics/territorial_force/1908_territorial_force_introduction.html

"The Territorial Force, newly formed in 1908, was equipped with a variety of equipment, both regulation and commercial. By the 20th Century, their accoutrements were largely a mixture of Valise Equipment of Patterns 1882 and 1888, as well as commercial derivatives of these. Once Patt. 1908 was on issue to the Regular Army, surplus Patt. 1903 Bandolier Equipment became available for the T.F., though its pockets meant only units with charger-loading weapons could make use of B.E."

Written by the late Rog Dennis in 2019, described after his death as "widely recognised as one of, if not the, leading authority on 20th century British accoutrements and Mills Equipment Company (M.E.Co.) products generally. His broad knowledge in our field was respected by everyone who studies or writes about accoutrements, and his generosity in sharing his knowledge was legendary." Suffice to say fairly trustworthy...

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

This was in the second link I posted:

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/pics/territorial_force/1908_territorial_force_introduction.html

"The Territorial Force, newly formed in 1908, was equipped with a variety of equipment, both regulation and commercial. By the 20th Century, their accoutrements were largely a mixture of Valise Equipment of Patterns 1882 and 1888, as well as commercial derivatives of these. Once Patt. 1908 was on issue to the Regular Army, surplus Patt. 1903 Bandolier Equipment became available for the T.F., though its pockets meant only units with charger-loading weapons could make use of B.E."

Written by the late Rog Dennis in 2019, described after his death as "widely recognised as one of, if not the, leading authority on 20th century British accoutrements and Mills Equipment Company (M.E.Co.) products generally. His broad knowledge in our field was respected by everyone who studies or writes about accoutrements, and his generosity in sharing his knowledge was legendary." Suffice to say fairly trustworthy...

That’s very interesting Andrew and certainly settles the question with regards to load carrying equipment, thank you.  I wonder how the funding worked.  The County Associations ran their own budget so presumably there must have been some cash transfer protocol with the War Office.

Edited 15 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE