Returning medals

[PB BUSH]

Among my grandfathers belongings were a number of WW1 medals that were not his. I have found out some detail about the owners, although I still have no idea what these people had in common with my Grandfather or his stepfather whose medals were also in with the unknown people.

Three number victory medals

J39292 W.C Durand A.B.R.N                                                                                                                                                                                            William Charles Durand, Born, 16th Feb 1889, Finsbury. William served on HMS New Zealand at the battle of Jutland. Invalided out 4th Sept 1918.

K29649 E. Dymond STO 1 R.N                                                                                                                                                                                                Edward Dymond, born 10th August 1880, joined the Navy 7th December 1915, Edward served on HMS Tipperary at the battle of Jutland. Taken prisoner, he died 2 days after the battle at the fortress hospital Heligoland

6753 PTE G.A Durand ASC                                                                                                                                                                                               George A Durand born 1871. Fought with the British Expeditionary force. Enlisted 2nd March 1915. Silver war badge 11th October 1918. Discharged 30th Sept 1918. Service number 301582 (old reg number 6753, which is on the medal)

British War medal

K.29649 E. Dymond STO 1 R.N. As above.

My grandfather was on HMS Royal Oak at the Battle of Jutland and his step father was in the ACS and sent to France and was himself awarded a silver badge and invalided out in 1916.

I have found it interesting to research these medals and their owners but feel that I should try and get the medals back to their families.

Any advice, help or direction would be appreciated

 

[mancpal]

Hello,

I find it admirable that you wish to return the medals to the respective families.

Please be aware that on occasion the recipient family may be delighted to receive the medals only to auction them at the first chance.

Ive been fortunate to have been involved in 2 medal re-unites, one to attempt return to family and the other to retrieve a pair from a collector for a friends family. Good luck 

Simon 

[horatio2]

Neither of the naval ratings ever saw their medals, The VM/BWM pair of Stoker Dymond were claimed by and issued to his widow, The two medals of AB Durand were claimed by and issued to his father, which must have been after his death (1924 per the Index Casualty (IC) reference in the medal roll.

[PB BUSH]

Thank you for your reply, however, I have Edward Dymond's original medals, are you saying that his family were given copies.

I also have the original medals for the Durand brothers George A Durand and William Charles Durand. 

Also George A Durand had three medals he was also awarded the star as he was with the Expeditionary army in France.

I do not have any for a person called AB Durand.

[tullybrone]

1 hour ago, PB BUSH said:

Thank you for your reply, however, I have Edward Dymond's original medals, are you saying that his family were given copies.

I also have the original medals for the Durand brothers George A Durand and William Charles Durand. 

Also George A Durand had three medals he was also awarded the star as he was with the Expeditionary army in France.

I do not have any for a person called AB Durand.

Horatio is the forum Royal Navy expert.

He uses the letters AB to signify his Naval rank not his initials. 
 

Steve

[PB BUSH]

Thank you for your reply, however, I have Edward Dymond's original medals, are you saying that his family were given copies.

I also have the original medals for the Durand brothers George A Durand and William Charles Durand. 

Also George A Durand had three medals he was also awarded the star as he was with the Expeditionary army in France.

I do not have any for a person called AB Durand.

 

6 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

Horatio is the forum Royal Navy expert.

He uses the letters AB to signify his Naval rank not his initials. 
 

Steve

Yes I appreciate that, however, I have the original medals for these three men that I would like to return to the families to replace their copies. 

my original question was is there anyone who can give me help, advice or direction, which is still my goal.

Can anyone help please

[horatio2]

12 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

I have Edward Dymond's original medals, are you saying that his family were given copies.

No, I am telling you to whom the original medals (which you have) were issued after WW1. That information may (or may not) help in tracing their families. I have not mentioned "copies" or replica medals which may (or may not) be held by those families.

[PB BUSH]

OK trying not to get into semantics, Forgetting all that has gone before.

How do I get these medals back to the rightful families, Is it even possible.

Or in your collective expert opinion, as the families of two of the men have already claimed their medals should I just forget my goal and move on.

I would welcome your comments so that I can close this particular door.

[TEW]

The families of two of the men did not claim the medals they were the rightful recipients of the original medals as they were the next of kin.

Perhaps they then sold them.

TEW

[charlie962]

8 minutes ago, PB BUSH said:

How do I get these medals back to the rightful families, Is it even possible.

Or in your collective expert opinion, as the families of two of the men have already claimed their medals should I just forget my goal and move on.

Although the original medals have left the original families and ended up in your hands, the descendants are often puzzled by who in the family sold/parted with/lost them and would often be very interested in 're-aquiring' them. Dillema if there is more than one descendant interested but a high class problem perhaps.

So it is commendable to be prepared to try and reunite family and medals.

By going to service records (for the RN luckily they survive) we can get an address. Then looking at eg local papers, Ancestry family trees etc we can find, perhaps, a relative. etc etc  Then make contact.

Beware that some families can almost get aggressive in insisting that they have more right than you. A debateable point if the family originally sold them and the subject of many discussions on this forum.

good luck

Charlie

[PB BUSH]

Just quoting horatio2 post 

"Neither of the naval ratings ever saw their medals, The VM/BWM pair of Stoker Dymond were claimed by and issued to his widow, The two medals of AB Durand were claimed by and issued to his father, which must have been after his death (1924 per the Index Casualty (IC) reference in the medal roll."

I am reliably informed by tullybrone that  "Horatio is the forum Royal Navy expert." I only used his words!!

 

[charlie962]

1 minute ago, PB BUSH said:

I am reliably informed by tullybrone that  "Horatio is the forum Royal Navy expert." I only used his words!!

Thus what Horatio has said is most probably entirely correct. You say you have researched them so have you information that conflicts?

[horatio2]

To be clear - all naval medals had to be claimed (unlike War Office medals which were just 'popped in the post' whether a man wanted them or not).

If a naval man was deceased his medals still had to be claimed, in these cases by widow and father. If a man died during service or after discharge and his next-of-kin claimed, then one of a large number of entries could be recorded: mother, father, sister, brother, daughter, uncle, cousin, widow, executor, executrix, legatee, universal legatee, administrator, legal representative etc.

Your commendable quest into the movements of these medals starts with with the widow and father.

[PB BUSH]

Thank you Charlie 962 for your positive reply's

Charlie, I have had in my possession 7 medals for many years. They were in my grandads possessions when my father bought his house in 1955. The medals which had been with my grandad since the end of the war were in an old leather pouch belonging to my grandfather along with his rosary and his Jutland medal. When my father died I inherited his own WW2 medals along with the WW1 medals inside my grandads old leather purse. I also got his naval record which is on waxed sail clothe. 

Recently I have taken an interest in the pouch and its contents one of the medals was a Victory medal which was my grandfathers, and has led me to his fantastic past. The second after  long research was his stepfathers which produced numerous skeletons from the family cupboard. Which left five medals, as far as I know none of them have anything to do with my family.

For completeness I looked into each medal and found out some detail on each. I found that two medals belonged to sailors who fought at the battle of Jutland like my grandfather, however they were all on different ships. My grandfather was on HMS Royal Oak, the other sailors were on HMS New Zealand and HMS Tipperary.

I am glad that I found these men and my only goal was to return their medals to their families, which I thought was the right thing to do, however I have come to this site for help and all I seem to be getting is resistance.

I do thank you though as at least you have replied in a positive nature. Thank you.

[TEW]

Apologies, it may be that in these circumstances the RN would insist on a claim being made.

For Army a NOK would normally be on record or a will in existence and the medals sent out.

I'd defer to Horatio's post above.

[charlie962]

27 minutes ago, PB BUSH said:

I found that two medals belonged to sailors who fought at the battle of Jutland like my grandfather, however they were all on different ships.

Could it be that your grandfather met the families of the original sailors, and the family thought that your grandfather was a most suitable man to hold these medals for safekeeping as he would appreciate their personal/historical value (as opposed to financial, which in those days was zero)?

Did the home addresses of the sailors or the next of kin medal claimants suggest any connection with your grandfather- or is that work yet to be done?

charlie

[PB BUSH]

Charlie,

I have no idea, my grandfather was from the East End prior to the war and moved to West London after the war. He remained an Admiralty messenger in London until WW2

One of the other men came from Bristol he was a carpet repairer, he died in the fortress hospital Heligoland following the battle of Jutland and the other two came from Finsbury London. one was a messenger.

I have cross checked their naval records and none of them were in the same place at the same time. 

My Grandfather joined the Royal Navy in 1906. The others joined during WW1 hostilities.

When you research people you get drawn in even if you know them or not. If I am unable to hand them over to the families, I will look after them and them pass them on to my son to look after as my grandfather did to my father and my father to me.

Thank you

[PHIL DUGGAN]

When you research these medals and get a document there is often a list of linked documents to that man on the site..... and below that  "other persons researching " section on the research sites namely Ancestry, and I often make contact with the tree owner via that means.

To be honest its either for further information on my medals, or if not to let them know of their existence. To my knowledge so far over the past 10 years or so, only 2 have bothered to reply and get their family medals back from the auction house.

Often despite the fact that they "book on every day" and my message is read I don't always get a reply, which is frustrating as I know I would love family medals back if they were out there.

So In essence teach on Ancestry. Look to see how many are in their "Tree" if its a small amount then they are close to the man on the medals especially if there are photos, if not they are just part of a huge DNA generated tree and will more than likely miles away from them.

Alternatively find their home town, contact a local newspaper... BUT who reads those these days...

It really is a one in a million chance Im afraid despite your heart felt plan to get them back. 

But Good luck !.

My advice, is Keep them. Research Them- get the enjoyment, and then in many years pass them on... Or sell them to another collector who will enjoy them in their collection.

 

We are only custodians for them for our short time anyway..

 

Phil d

Edited 11 February , 2022 by PHIL DUGGAN

[PB BUSH]

Thanks Phil for your advice

I will never sell them and will only let them go to the rightful family, other than that I will look after them. 

Thank you again

[chaz]

my advice,keep  and hand on to your next generation, if at school they might even go on a war grave trip (both of my boys did).

families often sold the medals somewhere around the 1920's due to the  financialcrash that took place after the first war. A way of trying to get money for food and clothes. When the silver prices rose, many War Medals (BWM;'s) being silver were pawned or sold for the scrap value, same reasons. 

lately some have tried reuniting but have found no sooner returned they appear back for sale. Others have come to an agreement, if a relative wants them (and you want recompense) tell the family to find a similar item to "swap".  Its also been noted that some people have donated to museums, and as the museums have limited storage, they too sell them on. Soif having reunited an already sold off item back to the family, they could be sold or loaned then sold off again.

if interested have a look at the BritishMedal Forum , they have a wants section, also many threads on this subject.

[charlie962]

DURAND

I suspect George Augustus Durand of the ASC was the father of William Charles Durand RN.

Ancestry have a christening record of Wm Chas showing he was born 18/2/1899 which ties up with the Naval service record. His mother was Sarah. Address 4 William Place, Haggerston. Father's occupation Sawyer.

Link here

The following is open to verification as to whether it is all one and the same man.

I note also that there is a Wm Chas Durand of Camberwell, b 1899 who joins the Royal Artillery 1921,Service No 1047287, giving former occupation as Seaman. He gets discharged because of a civil offence (housebreaking), imprisoned 1921 and dies shortly after he comes out from Pentonville in 1922.

These are the FindmyPast records that lead me to this story.

He is the only surviving child of George and Sarah according to the 1911 Census here

George Augustus was born in Sevenoaks to John and Elizabeth, but in the 1871 Census they are already in Peckham/Camberwell

EDIT

George has a Pension Record that shows he was discharged 1918 with bronchitis and address is now 32 York Place Boscombe Bournmouth. A second card gives us all sorts of old service numbers for him: Labour Corps 301582, also 6753, 71847 and 46956.

I think it is his death recorded 1933 in Poole.

So the family line dies out?

all a bit sad really.

EDIT EDIT

There is a pension card on WFA/Fold3 for William Charles Durand quoting his naval number 39292. His date of death is stated as 13/11/22 and marked Effects. His address is given as Hackney but there is also reference to New Zealand (his old ship)

 

Charlie

Edited 11 February , 2022 by charlie962

[eairicbloodaxe]

It is of course possible. The problem is in deciding who are the rightful family?

If a man died without children, but had 2 sisters, which line should you follow to find living relatives? And if each sister had 2 children, and each of them also had two... you now have at least 14 people who could be eligible.

It is fun doing the tracing, though.

Kind regards

 

Ian

 

[Coldstreamer]

Where it is admirable to want the family to have the medals it’s highly likely they didn’t want them, for what ever reason. Not everyone is bothered about medals inc recipients !

if you are confident not family related then perhaps consider giving them to a museum ? But they might sell them one day so bear that in mind. You could sell them. The medals then go to someone who will appreciate them.  The money you can give to charity or dispose of as you see fit 

 

[PB BUSH]

On 11/02/2022 at 18:42, charlie962 said:

DURAND

I suspect George Augustus Durand of the ASC was the father of William Charles Durand RN.

Ancestry have a christening record of Wm Chas showing he was born 18/2/1899 which ties up with the Naval service record. His mother was Sarah. Address 4 William Place, Haggerston. Father's occupation Sawyer.

Link here

The following is open to verification as to whether it is all one and the same man.

I note also that there is a Wm Chas Durand of Camberwell, b 1899 who joins the Royal Artillery 1921,Service No 1047287, giving former occupation as Seaman. He gets discharged because of a civil offence (housebreaking), imprisoned 1921 and dies shortly after he comes out from Pentonville in 1922.

These are the FindmyPast records that lead me to this story.

He is the only surviving child of George and Sarah according to the 1911 Census here

George Augustus was born in Sevenoaks to John and Elizabeth, but in the 1871 Census they are already in Peckham/Camberwell

EDIT

George has a Pension Record that shows he was discharged 1918 with bronchitis and address is now 32 York Place Boscombe Bournmouth. A second card gives us all sorts of old service numbers for him: Labour Corps 301582, also 6753, 71847 and 46956.

I think it is his death recorded 1933 in Poole.

So the family line dies out?

all a bit sad really.

EDIT EDIT

There is a pension card on WFA/Fold3 for William Charles Durand quoting his naval number 39292. His date of death is stated as 13/11/22 and marked Effects. His address is given as Hackney but there is also reference to New Zealand (his old ship)

 

Charlie

Thanks Charlie, you are obviously a seasoned researcher. 

Why do you think George had four service numbers I found two on FMP, 6753 and 301582 (6753 is engraved on his victory medal). Both numbers are on his silver war badge record and his medical card. Where did you find Georges Pension record.

There could be a link with to my family with George and my great grandmothers 2nd husband Charles Frederick Beament, born 1874. C F Beament joined the ACS Corps in 1912, two years before the war, he served in France Aug 1914 - Dec 1915, He is awarded his silver war badge and discharged 1916 nearly 43 years old. C F Beament was a Hackney carriage driver and by way of his marriage to my great grandmother is listed as a baker too!

George Durand, born 1871, enlists 2nd March 1915 and is sent to France with the ANC, it looks like he is transferred at some point to I.C.L.C Labour Corps (not sure what the I.C stand for. George is awarded his silver war badge and discharged 30th Sept 1918 at 47 years old.

I have found out most of my information from Find my past. I have stayed away from Ancestry as some people say it is difficult to stop your subscription when you want to, has anyone had that experience.

Peter

 

Thanks Phil for your advice

I will never sell them and will only let them go to the rightful family, other than that I will look after them. 

Thank you again

[charlie962]

36 minutes ago, PB BUSH said:

Where did you find Georges Pension record.

The pension cards are on Fold3 which is an Ancestry related company requiring a separate sub. I subscribe to Western Front Assoc who saved these records and thus give free access via their site amongst a number of other benefits.

The extra numbers on the card could be service numbers or could be internal pension reference numbers. It is not obvious. I tried a search using them but nothing. Note that not all service numbers held by an individual during his service appear on the medal cards or rolls. Generally those only show overseas service.

I'm not aware of any problem cancelling an Ancestry sub if you do it in advance of end date.

ICLC I think stands for Irish Command Labour Centre which is where he ended up.

The 14/15 Star Roll tells us he first went overseas with 4th Labour Company, ASC ( the Labour Corps didn't exist at this early stage but later in absorbed these ASC companies)

ps A couple of times you have repeated ACS or ANC. I assume each time you mean ASC?

Hang on to the medals and keep your research with them. I feel the museum route means they would be forgotten. You have made the effort to remember these men.

You can always get free access to Ancestry via your local library and thus perhaps a bit of research on family trees of the various families including yours may throw up further links?

Charlie

Edited 13 February , 2022 by charlie962