Unlikely? ASC enlistment & service scenario

[TEW]

I've been looking thorough MAC (Motor Ambulance Convoy) diaries and some have an Historical Narrative regarding early formation etc. No. 1 MAC has some odd statements regarding their early 'recruits'. They weren't actually designated as a MAC until sometime after disembarking.

The idea that the Wolsey Co. men 'enlisted' into the ASC and served in a theatre of war for almost nine months without a regimental number seems too odd to me.

The entire party disembarking with no officers or NCOs present and electing two 'Privates' to organise things is all a bit Blackadder.

The two 'Privates', Edwards & Clunes. Clunes maybe James Clunes M/3587, entered theatre 9/10/1914 which seems a month later than the narrative. He's on a HQ 4th Army Corps ASC roll and was later commissioned.

Could of course be a different Clunes, if Private Clunes had no number how would his medal roll work?

There is a sort of part 2 to this with the BRCS men of 4 MAC who had to enlist into the ASC in Dec 1915 (conscription coming?).

I've attempted to cross ref 1914 or 14/15 star rolls for BRSC to Pair rolls for ASC but can only do so with unusual names on the star roll, no luck so far. Unfortunately for the BRCS men they agreed to enlist as drivers for the MAC but were enlisted for General Service so could have ended up anywhere.

TEW

 

 

 

 

[charlie962]

5 minutes ago, TEW said:

two 'Privates', Edwards & Clunes

Based on your opening comments I'd expect them to be called Jimmy and Martin ?

[charlie962]

If they were SE I am surprised they weren't given a 4 digit number alongside.

 

[TEW]

Thanks, I'm still surprised they weren't given any numbers!

TEW

[Waggoner]

Sounds like a bit of an ad hoc group! SE is not a normal ASC prefix but an AVC one. A curious story here that should be investigated further.

All the best,

Gary

 

[TEW]

I'll check tomorrow but I'm sure the December 1915 4 MAC enlisted were designated 'Special Enlistments' into ASC. It's not a term I've heard of and the BRCS negotiated specific terms which were recinded after they enlisted!

I thought it would be fairly straight forward to ID some of these civilian owner/drivers, RAC men or Chaffeurs from the Wolsey Company with a 1914 Star and BWM/Vict as ASC.

TEW

[charlie962]

I see quite a lot of appeals for chauffeurs and ambulances in Sep and Oct 1914 in the local papers on Findmypast. There was a huge shortage of both in the British and French armies 

There are a number of individual responses where an individual car owner provides his car and his chauffeur at his own expense, but to the BRC.

An example is  a Mr JH Kaye of Norwood  who lends his chauffeur JA Platt. I think this is John Arthur Platt born 1881 and living Norwood, Huddersfield. BRC organise for him to go to France so I presume he will have no service number but perhaps the certificate number stands in its place? There is a BRC/VAD card on fmp showing he went to France in Oct 1914. I don't think he was one of your ASC men but joined the RFC in June 1916 and went to France again Aug 1916 and remained there till 1919, presumably in a driver role. RFC service no 35228. I quote this example in detail but there are others. It is clear that cars and drivers were going out as private initiatives, remaining as civilians,  but under BRC control, I think.

Separately there seems to have been a War Office appeal for drivers and perhaps this is the ASC group?

I shall look further....

[charlie962]

Here is ref to two appeals by war office for drivers 

"The British Newspaper Archive | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000576%2f19141114%2f026&stringtohighlight=chauffeurs war office responsibility

 

[charlie962]

The second appeal- but not limited to ambulances and no clarification of terms?

"The British Newspaper Archive | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000540%2f19141023%2f232&stringtohighlight=war office motor drivers

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, Waggoner said:

Sounds like a bit of an ad hoc group! SE is not a normal ASC prefix but an AVC one. A curious story here that should be investigated further.

All the best,

Gary

 

Agreed but SE numbers were used by ASC from August 1914.

Not easy to find because more often than not I come across transcription errors where SE should be SS or ASC should be AVC! (I am surprised by fmp's errors). So I have to see service records and original MiCs rather than transcriptions of eg MICs

Example:

C Edwards SE/1120 who was MiD in LG 20/10/14. To France 11/8/14, seems to have been renumbered as MS/1120 for his medal index card ?

JP Edwards SE/3125 renumbered MS/982 in 1916, I think. To France 19/8/14. Couldn't find an MIC.

CW Wood  SE/1308 renumbered MS/1308. France 16/8/14.

Those MS renumbered may support your Clunes candidate?

Because your men  went as ambulance drivers ( which I don't believe is the case of the three above,) I wonder if their lack of numbering was because most chauffeurs were under BRCS and not numbered and all seemed a bit confused Sept/ Oct ? I am surprised the Wolseley men weren't BRCS when I read all those newspaper articles.

Charlie

 

 

Edited 10 February , 2022 by charlie962

[TEW]

I'll read through more MAC diaries tomorrow. I'm aware some were pretty much privately constructed and others EG. #4 were BRC.

There were other problems with these drivers being in khaki uniform but not in the Army. Discipline problems and men popping home or taking days off wasn't going down well.

TEW

[Waggoner]

Very interesting. I have a medal to an ASC soldier with an SE prefix but it was mistakenly issued off of the AVC roll.

All the best,

Gary

[charlie962]

5 hours ago, Waggoner said:

Very interesting. I have a medal to an ASC soldier with an SE prefix but it was mistakenly issued off of the AVC roll.

All the best,

Gary

There were a lot of switches between AVC and ASC so plenty of scope for confusion.

[QUEX]

I wouldn't be surprised at anything that happened with admin in the early weeks.  In my own bit of the forest I've seen men enlisted for the Int Corps, given ASC TS numbers, their papers sent to the R Fus depot at Hounslow, and in 1916 the ASC trying to trace these men with 'their' numbers who they had no record of.  Similarly it seems that although most men who enlisted for the Int Corps in 1914 were processed through the R Fus depot they were probably not allocated R Fus numbers until Nov/Dec by which time some of them had been in France for 4 months.  And, in at least one case, when a man was being discharged in 1917 no record of his enlistment could be found and he effectively had to be re-enlisted with a 1917 R Fus number so he could be discharged - presumably the system had been paying him all that time ....

And this is nothing to do with the Int Corps being 'special', or 'cover', or any other mythology - it's simply a reflection of the frenetic pace of events in the early weeks of the war, with ad hoc units being created and grafted onto the army's administrative system.

[TEW]

Thanks 

Think I'm seeing this with #1-#5MAC.

The MACs weren't designated as such until October 1914 when the RAMC took charge.

Those in France in September were basically EG. 418 MT Coy. ASC with an odd group of civilian owner/drivers & 'orderlies' thrown in unexpectedly and with some MACs supposedly organised by the BRC.

Doesn't appear that the base depots or the advanced depot or the DMS or GHQ were expecting civilians (in Khaki) to turn up, GHQ certainly didn't like the arrangement hence the RAMC took over.

TEW