Help required - 6th East Yorkshire (Service) Battalion - D Company - Suvla August 1915

[Gen Melchett]

Hello all! I have been researching my Great Grandfather (Albert J O'Neill, Private 10337 - D Coy). I can trace the battalion from the UK to Alexandria, Lemnos and Imbros, and their landing at Sulva. What I am interested in relates to the advance on Tekke Tepe on the 8th/9th August. Most of D company were killed / wounded in this engagement, and the survivors accounts explains the detail of what happened. It seems due to confusion, late orders, and the general fog of war, D Coy advanced without support (as the other Coys were held back by a Turkish flanking manouvre behind D Coy). My G.Grand Father was listed as missing on the 9th, and then at the end of the war declared dead.

My query is whether he was killed during the contact with the Turks on the 8/9th or was perhaps taken prisoner. I'm assuming he was wounded / killed but you never know, he may have been one of the few (5 I think) taken prisoner. Does anyone know any more than this? Who would have made the decision to declare him dead on the 9th at the end of the war? Also are there any listings of those taken prisoner? Finally does anyone have any more info on D Company? Particularly any pictures as the only pic I have of my G. Grandfather is from when he worked on the docks in Hull prior to him joining up.

This site has helped tremendously - it is really fascinating to research that period as you get a real sense of the ridiculousness of much of it - the result of which was the terrible casualties!

Kind regards.

[Jeff Pickerd]

Hi Gen,

Unfortunately I cannot give you any information on 'D' Coy, 6th Service Battalion (Pioneer), East Yorkshire Regiment, with its advance on the 9th August, 1915, and it is rather disappointing that no one else has been able to assist either.

What I can give you, is in regard to the Turkish records from the 'Prisoners of War at the Canakkale Battles - Testimonies and Letters - Vol 1 & 2', the T.C. Genelkurmay Baskanligi Ankara, 2009.

Those records give the number of 'D' Coy POW's on the 9th August 1915 as numbering 44, a substantially greater number than your suspected 5. The bad news is that your Great Grandfather is not one of the named men. That would seem to indicate that he was killed during the battle on the 9th, but in saying that. the Turkish records are not 100% accurate.

I will put the list of the 44 names and Regimental numbers of those men of 'D' Coy that are recorded in the two volumes up for you later this evening.

Regards,

Jeff

[PRC]

On 06/02/2022 at 18:55, Gen Melchett said:

My query is whether he was killed during the contact with the Turks on the 8/9th or was perhaps taken prisoner. I'm assuming he was wounded / killed but you never know, he may have been one of the few (5 I think) taken prisoner. Does anyone know any more than this?

Sorry - missed this when it was originally posted.

There is nothing that I could find for him on the International Committee of the Red Cross website, not even a missing persons enquiry. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/

After you get pass the initial screen of surname, country and whether military or civilian, there is a drop down box at the top that allows you to focus your search on the men captured at Gallipoli, (which confusingly also includes those captured in Egypt and Palestine

Records do however sometime get mis-filed in other categories and maybe worth checking for alternative spellings of he surname, with or without the "O"

Once you have the names of the prisoners may be worthwhile checking the National Archive site to see if they were interviewed on their return to the UK.

On 06/02/2022 at 18:55, Gen Melchett said:

Who would have made the decision to declare him dead on the 9th at the end of the war?

Unlikely to have waited until the end of the war - normally the declaration was made after 12 months at the most. A useful check will be his entry on the Soldiers Effects Register, (Ancestry only). That's a financial ledger rather than an inventory. The first entry will be when the balance of his pay was sent to his next of kin. For that to happen the Army would have had to regard him as death.

Also worth checking Ancestry or it's US sister site Fold3, (separate subscription required) as I'm assuming there would have been a Widows Pension paid out - or at least a dependants pension. The Ministry of Pensions control cards may have survived and depending on the format used, may include the date the Ministry received the information he was dead. The wife's Separation allowance continued for 28 weeks after a man went missing to allow enquiries to be made. There may well have been circumstances in which it could be extended, but I have come across instances where the local welfare committee have had to make ex-gratia interim payments to prevent hardship, until the pension was awarded. They were then re-imbursed directly from the Ministry of Pensions from any arrears that would have been due. Ancestry have transcripts, while Fold3 has images of these cards.

Not seeing a soldiers will for him held by the UK Government Probate Service, but again worth checking the Soldiers Effects Register to see if the balance of his pay and War Gratuity was sent to a legatee. That means a will exists and a copy of that is likely to show when it was processed by the courts - which would require the soldier to have been declared dead.

Finally check local papers. Online sources like the British Newpaper Archive, and the releavnt subscription levels of FindMyPast and Ancestry are useful as at least they can be machine searched. Unfortunately the software used to translate the images into text leaves a lot to be desired - witness these thumbnails from September 1915 showing him originally recorded as missing.

And from October 1915 when his wife was asking for any information about her missing husband - note he is stated to be with the Machine Gun section

Both images courtesy FindMyPast.

I don't subscribe so can't check out the original articles. But a bit of creative searching may turn up the casualty list where his status changes from missing to killed in action.

If subscription is an issue and you live in the UK then you may want to check out what's on offer via your local public library service. Most subscribe to either Ancestry or FindMyPast, (sometimes both) and the British Newspaper Archive. You do usually need to be in a Library and accessing via one of their terminals as most seemed to have stopped the temporary arrangement during the pandemic when you could access from home.

Hope some of that helps,
Peter

[Gen Melchett]

Hi Jeff and Peter. Many thanks for this information, really informative and another piece of the jigsaw!! I’ll certainly delve deeper and repost here anything I discover.

Talk about coincidences but I was in the TA Green Howards, as a section machine gunner! Long before I found out about Albert, my G Grandfathers short lived experience.

Thanks again.

Lee

[Jeff Pickerd]

Hi again Lee,

That is most interesting information put forward by Peter,

The following is the list of names recorded in the Turkish Prisoners of War records found at the TGS ATASE Directorate Archives. The names transcribed in the order they are set out in the two volumes, being listed by, officers, NCO's & privates, and recorded in alphabetical order as written on the original documents. All are noted as members of 'D' Coy, 6th Pioneer/Sapper Battalion, East Yorkshire Regiment, with regimental number, taken prisoner on the 9th August 1915, unless otherwise stated, or not recorded.

Captain R. Derrrick Elliott. (No Company recorded)

2nd Lieutenant John Still. (No Coy recorded)

Lieutenant R. A. Rawstorne, 'D' Coy.

Corporal Ernest Stanley No. 11064.

Cpl W. Blanchflower No. 10626.

Cpl W. H. Turney (or recorded as Swiney) No. 11385.

Cpl Ralph Purins No. 11398.

Lance Corporal Andrew Searles No. 6724.

L/Cpl G. W. Garfit No. 6/10687.

L/Cpl G. W. B. Fisher. (no number recorded)

L/Cpl McGlen No. 16420.

Private A. Ward No. 11994.

Pte Adam Guthrie No. 15138.

Pte Allan Baker No. 16433.

Pte C. J. Scott No. 11042.

Pte Cornelius Bird No. 10602.

Pte D. Gleghorn No. 15163.

Pte D. Nanson No. 15789.

Pte G. Camplin No. 11002.

Pte G. A. Nash No. 13169.

Pte G. S Cook, (no number of Regt number recorded, but date of capture 9th August)

Pte J. Blackwood No. 6/16434.

Pte J. W. Davies No. 13506.

Pte James Harrison No. 13656.

Pte James Scott No. 10663.

Pte John Hurness No. 16412.

Pte Lawrence Moore No. 13305.

Pte M Bradley No. 16405.

Pte M. Walsh No. 16428.

Pte P. Wolstenholme No. 15273.

Pte R. Smith No. 13687.

Pte R. W. Walker No. 16445.

Pte Robert Grainger Clark No. 10838.

Pte Robert Mann No. 10931.

Pte Thomas Alvin No. 10858.

Pte Thomas W. Brown No. 11522. (Hid in scrub until captured on the 10th August)

Pte W. Capes No. 13663. (As above 10th August)

Pte W. Cruddus No. 16407.

Pte W. Mason No. 10901.

Pte Walter Seward No. 16695. Pte William Muldoon No. 16514.

Pte William Cowhorn No. 15665.

Pte William Lawson No. 15131.

There were also men from 'A', 'B' & 'C' Companies captured on the 9th August, but only one or two men from each company.

None of the above men give any substantial details of the battle, or their capture, but their Regt numbers may be of assistance to forming a bigger picture of the action.

As I noted in the previous mail, and now seems to be supported by Peters' post, it is most likely that your Great Grandfather was killed in action, and his body never recovered.

Jeff

[Gen Melchett]

Fascinating Jeff. I’d read Lt Stills account of his time as a prisoner but he never acknowledges that there were that many taken as prisoners from D coy. I wonder how many made it home? My assumption was always that  my GGfthr died in action within two days of landing at Suvla. He’s listed on the Helles memorial but all of this information really brings to life the whole story.

Many thanks.

Lee

[michaeldr]

 

For this action the 6^th East Yorks were with the 32^nd Brigade whose WD gives the following:-

"9^th(AUG) 4am – The 6^th East Yorkshire Regt followed by the 67^th Field Company and the 8^th West Riding Regt moved off on the given bearing, all went well until they got into the broken ground North East of BAKA BABA about CHAKAL CHAIR 119 V, when they encountered a superior force of the enemy well posted - on the previous afternoon officers patrols of the 6^th East Yorkshire Regt had been up in the hills for which the force were now making & beyond a few snipers had seen no signs of the enemy in strength; it was therefore thought that this force would be able to reach and secure its objective without much opposition.

The force was obliged to retire and gave ground slowly; fighting a Rear Guard action & retiring westwards. The 6^th East Yorkshire Regt took up a position about 118 S, and finally at 3.30pm Capt. KIDD who was in command of the Battalion withdrew and placed himself on the left of the 34^th Brigade, where he came under General SITWELL'S orders. The casualties during the day in both officers & men had been very heavy.”

 

Edited 15 February , 2022 by michaeldr
correct 4 words previously mis-read

[michaeldr]

The appendices in the 32^nd Brigade WD also show a message which begins thus

“Capt Kidd 8 WR reports through 34^th Bde that most of Bn wiped out about 200 left AAA

Also fear very much East Yorkshire and 67^th Field Company suffered very severely AAA

… …”

The message is timed at 1200hrs

[michaeldr]

Later, there is another message, this time from the 34^th Brigade. It commences:- “I wish to record the admirable conduct of CAPT KIDD cmdg W. Riding Regt on aug 9^th last when driven back with heavy losses.......”

[Gen Melchett]

Thanks Michael, really useful as I have 6 East York’s war diary so can marry the two up!

Regards.

 

Lee.

[PRC]

5 hours ago, Jeff Pickerd said:

The following is the list of names recorded in the Turkish Prisoners of War records found at the TGS ATASE Directorate Archives. The names transcribed in the order they are set out in the two volumes, being listed by, officers, NCO's & privates, and recorded in alphabetical order as written on the original documents. All are noted as members of 'D' Coy, 6th Pioneer/Sapper Battalion, East Yorkshire Regiment, with regimental number, taken prisoner on the 9th August 1915, unless otherwise stated, or not recorded.

Captain R. Derrrick Elliott. (No Company recorded)

2nd Lieutenant John Still. (No Coy recorded)

Lieutenant R. A. Rawstorne, 'D' Coy.

Corporal Ernest Stanley No. 11064.

Cpl W. Blanchflower No. 10626.

Cpl W. H. Turney (or recorded as Swiney) No. 11385.

Cpl Ralph Purins No. 11398.

Lance Corporal Andrew Searles No. 6724.

L/Cpl G. W. Garfit No. 6/10687.

L/Cpl G. W. B. Fisher. (no number recorded)

L/Cpl McGlen No. 16420.

Private A. Ward No. 11994.

Pte Adam Guthrie No. 15138.

Pte Allan Baker No. 16433.

Pte C. J. Scott No. 11042.

Pte Cornelius Bird No. 10602.

Pte D. Gleghorn No. 15163.

Pte D. Nanson No. 15789.

Pte G. Camplin No. 11002.

Pte G. A. Nash No. 13169.

Pte G. S Cook, (no number of Regt number recorded, but date of capture 9th August)

Pte J. Blackwood No. 6/16434.

Pte J. W. Davies No. 13506.

Pte James Harrison No. 13656.

Pte James Scott No. 10663.

Pte John Hurness No. 16412.

Pte Lawrence Moore No. 13305.

Pte M Bradley No. 16405.

Pte M. Walsh No. 16428.

Pte P. Wolstenholme No. 15273.

Pte R. Smith No. 13687.

Pte R. W. Walker No. 16445.

Pte Robert Grainger Clark No. 10838.

Pte Robert Mann No. 10931.

Pte Thomas Alvin No. 10858.

Pte Thomas W. Brown No. 11522. (Hid in scrub until captured on the 10th August)

Pte W. Capes No. 13663. (As above 10th August)

Pte W. Cruddus No. 16407.

Pte W. Mason No. 10901.

Pte Walter Seward No. 16695. Pte William Muldoon No. 16514.

Pte William Cowhorn No. 15665.

Pte William Lawson No. 15131.

There were also men from 'A', 'B' & 'C' Companies captured on the 9th August, but only one or two men from each company.

None of the above men give any substantial details of the battle, or their capture, but their Regt numbers may be of assistance to forming a bigger picture of the action.

Just filling in a few of the gaps on the prisoners list.

Captain Richard Derrick Elliott “D” Company 6th East Yorks.  https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1524200/3/2/

2nd Lieutenant John Still “A” Company 6th East Yorks. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/322001/3/2/
MiC shows him on the Exonerated Officers List 1

Lieutenant Richard Atherton Rawstorne “D” Company 6th East Yorks. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/76775/3/2/

Lance Corporal G.W.B. Fisher – no match on the ICRC website. The National Catalogue hold a MiC for a Private 13625 George William John Fisher, 6th Battalion, East Yorkshire Regiment, who first landed at Gallipoli on the “14th July 1915” – suspect that’s a date mix up by the clerk writing out the card who confused it with the 7th Battalion who landed in France on that day. The Remarks section of the MiC simply records Private Fisher  as “Died”. Looks like he also has surviving service records. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission website records him as died 13th January 1917 at Angora.

Private 16433 Allan Baker died 1st October 1918 according to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, a Prisoner of War in Asia Minor. Unfortunately difficult to make out the report reference on his card, and neither of the most likely possibles – R.6411 or R.6711 – contain any reference to him that I could see. His ICRC card shows him as “D” Company. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2278147/3/2/

Private 15163 David Henry Gleghorn died 29th May 1917 at Islahie according to CWGC. ICRC record card shows him as “D Company. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3078440/3/2/

Private G.S. Cook. ICRC has a Private 13668 George S. Cook 6th East Yorks who died of typhus in captivity at Angora on the 16th March 1917. No date of capture on either of the documents from the Turkish Red Crescent. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5017839/3/2/

Private 16434 James Blackwood died 24th May 1917 at Tarsus according to CWGC. ICRC record card shows him as “D Company. Died from a Wagon Accident. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5515562/3/2/

Private 13305 Lawrence Moore died 14th April 1917 at Kizal Irmak according to CWGC or Angora according to ICRC. The latter has him as “D” Company and the Turkish Authorities put his death down to “recurring fever”. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/405979/3/2/

Private 11522 Thomas W Brown died 28th January 1917 at Afion Kara Hissar according to CWGC. ICRC record card shows him as “D Company. Died of Nephritis. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1316342/3/2/

Hope that's of interest,
Peter

[Gen Melchett]

Thanks Peter, I appreciate the effort, and there's a lot to consider.

 

Kind regards.

Lee