Captain Necdet Kazim PoW

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

A member, Jeff, asked me to check into this officer captured by the 8 LHR during the Palestine battles to find any details on him. I am sorry to say I could find no details for him?

"Wondering if you can give me any information on this Turkish Officer, such as his regiment, date of capture by the 8th LH, and what became of him.

The new forum member Ismail, a journalist with SBS, has identified this officer from a photograph my grandfather brought home, which has had me intrigued for years, as the caption on the back is written in the Ottoman script. As well as Captain Necdet Kazim, the script mentions Major Mukhtar (Muhtar) Bey.

Look forward to hearing if you can shed any further light on these two"

I did I wonder if there was a PoW card on him in the records, as you have found these for Germans captured in Palestine?

I hope these photos came out?

S.B

PS

The photos don't appear to want to cross over?

Edited 4 February , 2022 by stevebecker

[emrezmen]

Only "Muhtar Bey" I know about on that front is CO of 63rd Regiment. The captain may well be from the 63rd (I need to check my sources to find out if this regiment fought against the 8th LH). I've got some photos of CO but the man you're looking for could be just a battalion leader. Any chance of sharing the photo?

Edited 5 February , 2022 by emrezmen

[Guest]

Emrezmen,

Yes possibly

Binbasi    Maj    Ahmet Muhtar Bey    63rd Regt - RHQ CO 1916-17 (20th Div) 
 

The 20th Div arrived in Palestine during late 1917 after fighting in Galicia but fought mainly the 1st and 2nd LH Bdes (Anzac Mounted Div) during late 1917-18

I was thinking more 19th Div as it arrived first in Palestine and saw fighting against the Australian Mounted of which the 8 LHR was part?

In particular the battle with the Storm Bn of the 15th Corps then part of the 19th Div but details on who commanded this units and its officers are short on?

I do have this officer, but unsure if the spelling is correct?

Storm Bn - Nasuhi Bey possibly Capt or Maj (not confirmed)

others I record are;

Yüzbasi     Capt    Ahmet Muhtar Bey    21st Regt - OC 2Bn at Gallipoli 1915        
Yüzbasi     Capt    Ahmet Muhtar Bey    25th Regt - 2Bn - OC 6Co         from Edrine       
Binbasi    Maj    Ahmet Muhtar Bey    Composed 3rd Reg from 38th Div        
Yarbay    LtCol    Mohamed Muhtar Bey or Mehmet Muhtar Bey    142nd Regt -     KIA 22-12-15 at siege of Kut    Mesopotamia - Kaymakam (Lt.Col.) Mehmet Muhtar Bey commander of 42nd Infantry Regiment on 9th Nov. 1915
Tegmen/Üstegmen    Lt    Muhtar    Comdr 2nd Numune Bn Libya/Trablusgarb        
Tegmen/Üstegmen    Lt    Muhtar     Warriors from Hassa and Derwisch tribes Libya/Trablusgarb        
Binbasi    Maj     Mukhtar (Muhtar) Bey    unknown        
Sanatçi    artist    Sermet Muhtar     unknown        famous painter
 

S.B

Edited 6 February , 2022 by stevebecker

[Jeff Pickerd]

Steve & Emre, many thanks for your efforts to look into the identity of these Turkish officers.

I am deeply indebted to Ismail for his rough translation of the Ottoman script of the reverse of the photo card, which reads as "This [photo] is my gift to my high-minded commander Major Muhtar Bey with respect. Signed Captain Necdet Kazim, dated 14 June 1917."

This would indicate that the card was in the possession of Major Muhtar when acquired by my Grandfather, but as to just when and how that came to be is still unknown. 

If the 14 June is the starting point for a search, the first major action taken by the 8th Light Horse Regiment would be that at ElBurg, 30th November/1st December 1917, where there was a chance of getting hold of souvenirs. From what I can see so far of this battle, the Turkish 19th & 20th Divisions of the 5th Army faced the 3rd Light Horse Brigade, thus the 8thLH at ElBurg. In his history of the 8th LH Regt, Major McGrath states that the Turkish commander of the attacking force was taken prisoner.

The photograph of Captain Necdet Kazim.

Jeff

[Guest]

Jeff,

Yes that's what and in the direction I was thinking, but could find only one name of an officer, but unknown when he was with that unit?

Last time we did something like this, a member put me onto the POW records , but I am very bad in checking and finding names on these, so hopefully he may see this, and check them out to see if any Ottoman officers were shown by these names or captured around these dates?

Cheers

 

S.B

[Jeff Pickerd]

Thanks Steve,

I have gone over the pages of Lt Col Huseyin Emirs' book 'Yildirim' in the hope that it may shed some light on the Turkish Storm Force that attacked the 8th LH at El Burg, but unfortunately the copies on the LHSC stop at the 11th November. Do you per chance have the full narrative of the book? Was hoping that a reference to Major Muhtar would be found in the book, but to no avail!

If my suspicions are correct, and the photo was obtained at El Burg, then it does fit to the movements of "C" Sqdn, 8th LH that time. My grandfather at this point in time was Squadron Quarter Master Sergeant, "C" Sdqn, under the command of Major Andrew Crawford.

Sgt George Auchterlonie, "C" Sqdn, 8th LH, in his diary does mention that these specially trained Turkish Storm Troops were equipped with steel helmets.

Will be interested to see if Emre can come up with any information.

Jeff

[emrezmen]

Hüseyin Hüsnü Emir's account of the battle is as follows (Yildirim p. 245):

"1st December: (...) The Storm Battalion of the 19th Division with the detachment from the 54th Division attacked El Burj and captured some machine guns from the enemy, but as the enemy got rear of this battalion, the battalion was again thrown back to the hills to the north of the road with severe casualties."

The extract from the Turkish OH (Birinci Dünya Harbi'nde Türk Harbi Sina-Filistin Cephesi, Vol. 4 Book 2, p. 388):

"The Nasuhi Bey Detachment, which was deployed by the 54th Division on the left flank of the army, crossed Nalin at 10 pm to act jointly with the 19th Division. The detachment occupied El Midye and the hills surrounding Berfilya. The Shilta detachment also attacked in the direction of El Burj and captured a dominant hill to the north of this village with the help of the 77th Infantry Regiment situated around Saffa. 158th Infantry Regiment captured some ground in the direction of Beyt Horon. Taking advantage of the initial success, the 19th Division Storm Battalion captured El Burj. However, surrounded by British forces on both sides, the battalion suffered heavy losses and withdrew to Shilta through the hill to the north of El Burj."

British OH says "The little composite British force remained on the hilltop until dawn, when the Turkish survivors, numbering six officers, including a battalion commander, and 112 other ranks, surrendered."

Although it seems our officers were part of the Storm Bn, I will also look into the composition of the Nasuhi Bey Detachment, to which I couldn't find any reference at the moment.

BTW - Do you guys have a better version of the following photograph taken after the action?

Edited 6 February , 2022 by emrezmen

[Jeff Pickerd]

Many thanks Emre for the details from ‘Yildirim’ and the Turkish History, adds a great deal to the battle at El Burg, and does confirm the capture of the Storm Battalion CO. Greatly appreciate your input.

Unfortunately this still remains speculation as to Captain Necdet Kazim being with the 19th Division Storm Battalion. Is there any way the officers of that unit can be identified?

I suppose in some respects Ismail as answered my initial question concerning the identity of the officer, but that has led to a search for further answers.

Jeff

[Guest]

Jeff,

Just so you can also check these

Check this on the Red Cross archives: https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2050813/901/42090/

But so far looking for Ottoman names instead of Germans has led to a blank wall?

S.B

[Jeff Pickerd]

Thanks Steve,

I have been going over the Formation Headquarters and Light Horse war diaries,  most of which have entries for the 1st December 1917 that give details of the battle at El Burg, and do confirm the capture of six officers. The 9th LH diary is interesting, as it states that a German Lieutenant Colonel was one of the officers taken prisoner, but as usual no name or any other details.

Out of interest, what was the rank of Lieutenant Colonel in German? That will make of the POW roles you gave the link to, much easy to search for a name.

Jeff

[emrezmen]

On 07/02/2022 at 00:12, Jeff Pickerd said:

Unfortunately this still remains speculation as to Captain Necdet Kazim being with the 19th Division Storm Battalion. Is there any way the officers of that unit can be identified?

 

War diary (if available) and/or unit history. Both held at ATASE Archive.

14 hours ago, Jeff Pickerd said:

The 9th LH diary is interesting, as it states that a German Lieutenant Colonel was one of the officers taken prisoner, but as usual no name or any other details.

As you might already be aware, there are many examples that Turkish officers were confused with Germans. In this case, they probably thought he was a lieutenant col as he was commanding a battalion, without knowing the fact that a battalion commander in the Ottoman Army would always be a major (and occasionally a senior captain "kolagasi"). Same story with the capture of the CO of 53rd Div by 7th LH during the First Battle of Gaza. Although he was a colonel, his rank was shown as general in most of the Allied sources, incl WD of the 7th LH.

Edited 9 February , 2022 by emrezmen

[Jeff Pickerd]

Again my thanks Emre,

Seeing as the 9th LH war diary is the only one to reference the German Lieutenant Colonel, you probably right in the suggestion that they had mistaken the rank, and possibly his nationality. It is very frustrating to have the two officers names, but nothing to identify their unit, or date of capture. The search goes on.

Jeff

[Guest]

Jeff,

I would agree, I can find no German Officer of, or around that rank, lost during Dec 1917

Oberstleutnant or LtCol

Since German officers took a rank increase in the Ottoman Army, then his German rank should be Maj

The only German I can see captured around that date, looks like

Liebau Hermann    Kanonier    Feldartillerie-Abteilung 701 - 2Bty -  (701st Arty Bn)    1917-18    (1896 at Quedlinburg ) vermißt MIA possibly PoW 24-12-17 at Muslemie
 

No further on when or where Muslemie is.

I should add that of around 200 + members of the Feldartillerie-Abteilung 701 I have on record, most if not all are shown captured in Sept 1918 during the last battles of the war. That includes all three Batteries and LAC and Stab.

S.B

Edited 10 February , 2022 by stevebecker