Discharged after Gallipoli, listed as imbecility?

[Jim Hastings]

Evening all, 

Again the Great War has raised something new for me and I guess that's why it fascinates so. I'm researching a man from 2nd Hampshires in Gallipoli who I think I'm distantly related to, to find he was discharged from the British Army early in 1916 for 'imbecility' after 6 months service (landed in Gallipoli 24th August 1915 and hospitalised in the November). Napsbury is mentioned and D Block of Netley from where it says he is discharged home. I've checked these two places out.  I'm assuming his service in Gallipoli had rendered this poor man so, and was just wondering, in the parlance of the day was 'imbecility' one of the terms used in lieu of 'shell shock' as I think, if memory serves me right, the authorities frowned upon the term 'shell shock' and banned it in 1917(?). If it is an alternative term was there any others the Forces used? 

Many thanks for any insights or pointers in right direction 

Have a good weekend, Jim

[tullybrone]

Hi,

 

I’ve never seen the term used in relation to shell shock. It’s more often used for what we would nowadays call low IQ or a person with mild/moderate/severe learning difficulties.

Steve

[Kath]

2 hours ago, Jim Hastings said:

a man from 2nd Hampshires in Gallipoli

Could we have a name, please?

[Jim Hastings]

20 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

Hi,

 

I’ve never seen the term used in relation to shell shock. It’s more often used for what we would nowadays call low IQ or a person with mild/moderate/severe learning difficulties.

Steve

Ah, I wonder how he got through Basic Training/ initial selection? Thank you Steve

[Jim Hastings]

19 minutes ago, Kath said:

Could we have a name, please?

Sorry Kath, yes he's Private Frederick Fosbuary 16272 of B Company (although I thought 2nd Hants has X, Y etc Coys) 

Found him on the Medal Rolls and MIC and Forces War Record checks

Aged 28

[kenf48]

In the ‘parlance of the day’ the term was in common usage and as noted above defined those with a moderate or low IQ or mental capacity.  A perusal of contemporary newspapers shows many advertisements for example for ‘imbecile attendants’ often in workhouses.  It was applied to children and adults.

As to how he got through basic training if he was able to perform simple tasks under supervision and march without difficulty it would not be too difficult for him.  I’ve not seen it mentioned as an alternative to shell shock, I have seen it in regard to early discharge where a soldier, ‘was unable to understand an order’ and discharged as unlikely to become an effective soldier.

In the OH Medical Diseases of the War the chapter on Neuresthania and War Neuroses it was observed that those most susceptible to complete mental breakdown, from which they were unlikely to recover, often had underlying problems prior to enlistment and therefore less mental resilience to effect a recovery.  This was most apparent amongst those who had joined the Army after traumatic events in childhood.  The study tends to concentrate on F and F and the arrangements there rather than the Dardanelles.

https://archive.org/details/medicalservicesd02macp/page/54/mode/2up

His widowed mother was apparently illiterate (her son completed the census form) and in 1939 Frederick was unmarried, living in rooms over an Inn and working as a labourer which again would not be intellectually demanding.

That said the ‘diagnosis’ of imbecility would have been made by the discharging medical board and they were notoriously unreliable and inconsistent, especially when it came to mental illness.  If a man had lost a limb their decision was pretty clear cut, but there was a reluctance to tackle ‘war neurosis’ not least due to the financial implications.  After the war many thousands were committed to ‘lunatic asylums’.  In 1921 there were 6,900 ex-soldiers in these institutions, many more were committed between the wars.

It’s interesting the OH notes there was little or no evidence of malingering amongst those who returned to the U.K. having suffered a mental breakdown.

[MaureenE]

I think there were all sorts of medical conditions both  physical, and what may today be termed psychological. or perhaps even social, where in a pre war situation the soldier or civilian was able to cope quite well, but with the physical  and psychological stresses of war service, including  for the latter continual change, the soldiers' body or mind broke down.

From the physical point of view, I am thinking of what I have read about Indian soldiers with a past history of malaria,  "chronic malaria" , who could cope with pre war Army life performing garrison duties , bur whose health broke down on active service.

I understand, although I cannot quote references,  that those who may have physical changes to their brain due to trauma,  or other conditions, can continue to function in a familiar environment but if conditions change may be unable to cope with changed conditions.

Maureen

[FROGSMILE]

I am thinking along similar lines to Maureen, in that one of the common effects of cerebral Malaria [swelling of the brain] might perhaps be described as madness (imbecility?) at that time.  However, I wouldn’t have expected a sufferer to be working as a labourer living above a pub 20-years later so I may well be off beam.  It’s worth at least considering though: https://www.lshtm.ac.uk/newsevents/expert-opinion/malaria-and-brain-what-long-term-impact-does-malaria-have-brain-function

Edited 5 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[michaeldr]

10 hours ago, Jim Hastings said:

Private Frederick Fosbuary 16272 of B Company (although I thought 2nd Hants has X, Y etc Coys)

A look at the War Diary confirms your remark earlier re the designation of Companies: at November 1915 it was still 'W' 'X' 'Y' & 'Z' (no 'B' company)

Casualties during the month of November 1915 were

Officers:- 1 wounded, 5 sick to hospital

Other Ranks:- 8 killed, 18 wounded, 207 sick to hospital, 4 discharged time expired.

No reasons are given for individual cases when noted as referred to hospital

 

[Jim Hastings]

Dear All,

 

Thank you so much, I have a much clearer view and am so glad I inquired rather than just assumed it to be 'shell-shock'. Interesting link to chronic malaria and the impact between barrack and operational soldiering - it did lead me to think back on my own military service. I had no idea of his life after the war so great to hear that he was labouring - I thought he may have been put in an asylum as Kenf48 indicated some were - I went to school on the hill above Cane Hill Hospital in Coulsdon, and our History teacher told us Great War soldiers were committed there. Thank you for the clarification on the 2 Hants Coy identifiers, I got the B Coy from FMR .... I also got B Coy when looking for Rowland Weller last month so hope not their default choice! 

Thank you again for your responses and the considerations they have provoked, much clearer picture 

A good weekend to you all 

Jim

[brianmorris547]

I remember seeing on a Census form a column marked "Whether idiot or imbecile". My old dictionary defined the words in terms of mental age. Idiot was a mental age of 0 to 2, imbecile was a mental age of 2 to 6, and moron was a mental age of 6 to 10. I can not be sure of the age ranges now since I no longer have that dictionary. As Jim says how did he get through basic training.

Brian

[TEW]

I think the man in question is listed as a Draper's Assistant in 1911.

Wonder what 1921 census says of him?

Difficult call really, D Block, Netley was the 'Mental' block which covers a multitude of things but I don't think the shell shocked were all D Block.

Although there were calls for the term Shell Shock to be abandoned I don't believe it was 'banned'. You can still find it used in records 1918-1919.

When the stress & pressure of war causes a breakdown the presentation & symptoms usually have commonalities across most people but perhaps only across 95%? The remaining 5% could present in such a way that didn't fit the picture and  defied a shell shock diagnosis.

TEW

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

I remember seeing on a Census form a column marked "Whether idiot or imbecile". My old dictionary defined the words in terms of mental age. Idiot was a mental age of 0 to 2, imbecile was a mental age of 2 to 6, and moron was a mental age of 6 to 10. I can not be sure of the age ranges now since I no longer have that dictionary.

The 1911 Census required such info:

Image Courtesy of Ancestry

I haven't previously seen such conditions defined by mental age.

1 hour ago, TEW said:

I think the man in question is listed as a Draper's Assistant in 1911.

Any such entry?

1 hour ago, TEW said:

Wonder what 1921 census says of him?

Haven't been able to find him - Has anyone else??

M

Edit: 1921 Census = Five "Fosbuary" in Alton, Hampshire, but no Frederick - plus a Frederick Fosbury, b.1888 Alton, recorded in Basingstoke - wonder if the latter is a surname transcription error at FMP or perhaps earlier??

Edited 5 February , 2022 by Matlock1418
edit

[Jim Hastings]

Hi All

Thank you for your further thoughts and digging on my behalf. Indeed the Fosbuary name has been re/misspelt over the decades and Frederick is actually a cousin to my GGF Andrew David Fosbraey who I made my very first GWF post about back in 2008. I have seen Fosbury and Fosbery ... gets a bit confusing after a while

There is a 32789 George Fosbuary/Fosbury also of 2nd Hants and a Basingstoke man but I can make no familial link, for instance

Thank you for your thoughts 

Jim

[TEW]

My basic search just used his full name located in Hampshire.

Frederick Fosbuary Address: Aragon Villas, Westbrook Road, Alton ... Age: 26... Born in: 1885... Birth Place: Alton, Hampshire... Relation: Son... Marriage Status: Single... Profession: Drapers Porter.

He has an older brother listed as Meat Salesman which could connect to another Fosbuary family in Alton, head being a butcher. Only add this as the head has added 'perfect' in the infirmity column and the phrase 'every inch' as an afterthought.

May of course be the wrong man.

TEW

[Matlock1418]

Pension card at WFA/Fold3

Image from WFA/Fold3

Unfortunately it does not tell us a lot more other than a claim recorded and dealt with in Region 11 [SE England] after the printer's mark of 11/16

The main pension file is likely to have been long destroyed - I could not find his file amongst the few retained files at TNA [PIN 26]

M

 

 

 

[Jim Hastings]

Scrambling for my notes now as sure his older brother Arthur was a butcher....

[Matlock1418]

4 minutes ago, TEW said:

the head has added 'perfect' in the infirmity column and the phrase 'every inch' as an afterthought.

He had a lovely sense of humour! 

M

[Jim Hastings]

Appreciate you looking, probably long destroyed as you say

I wonder what finally pushed him too far in Gallipoli, poor man

[TEW]

The butcher is AF Fosbuary with wife Beatrice. High Street, Alton. Could be a brother.

The Frederick in Westbrook Villas - his brother Harry originally wrote 'A William Fosbuary as the head but changed it to Mrs W[....], I can't read the name but it doesn't appear to be Mrs William Fosbuary. 1901 she's Jane and no sign of husband.

TEW

[Jim Hastings]

AF is the older brother TEW! Brilliant thank you! William was the father who died in 1894

[Matlock1418]

25 minutes ago, Jim Hastings said:

AF is the older brother

1921 Census: an Arthur Frank FOSBUARY, b.1875, with Beatrice, b.1878, with J.E., b1903, at Alton, Hampshire

Also: a Harry FOSBUARY, b.1872, and Mabel, b.1885, at Alton.

M

[brianmorris547]

18 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

The 1911 Census required such info:

Image Courtesy of Ancestry

I haven't previously seen such conditions defined by mental age.

Any such entry?

Haven't been able to find him - Has anyone else??

M

Edit: 1921 Census = Five "Fosbuary" in Alton, Hampshire, but no Frederick - plus a Frederick Fosbury, b.1888 Alton, recorded in Basingstoke - wonder if the latter is a surname transcription error at FMP or perhaps earlier??

M

It was the 1881 Census where I noticed it. It made me wonder what the difference was. By 1891 it had been changed to 1 Deaf 2 Blind 3 Lunatic, Imbecile or Idiot. 

I think the Officer was using the word in it's general sense.

Brian

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I think he died a Fosbury:

Deaths Dec 1961   (>99%)
FOSBURY	Frederick	77	Winchester	6b	826

[Jim Hastings]

He had a good innings, hope he found some happiness

 

Thank you for finding that out for me