Belgium bayonet identification

[Winterhawk]

I have been trying to identify regimental markings on a M1916 Belgium bayonet for some time. It is an early one, full length with a pinned guard and a 17.5 mm muzzle ring. It is marked on the guard  #15?7  GIe or GIo. This is probably a WWII trophy bayonet as the well worn WWII painted scabbard bears a dimly scratched in "Grenadiers Germany -1945" and a soldiers name and number. I am assuming this refers to the Canadian Grenadier Regiment who were in Belgium at that period. I am including a similar bayonet photo with the same marks as mine are poor. Thank you Winterhawk.

[trajan]

Welcome to the GWForum!

I am currently in the UK and so do not have access to my files so cannot comment on the serial marking. One thing to be aware of is that these M1916's were allegedly used by local police forces after 1940 but I have never seen any evidence to confirm that. It would, though, explain it being a WW2 trophy item. 

Trajan

[Winterhawk]

Thank you for getting back to me. I am inclined to agree with you on the subject of police use as that is quite common with many old weapons. Police use in Belgium or Germany? The scabbard would indicate Germany assuming they are a match but this came from a dealer. I am sure the scabbard was painted long before the inscription was added circa 1945 or 1946. There are a few of these that turn up in a shortened form for WWII German use with the 7.65 1935-mauser designated M1916-35 with a muzzle ring bushed to 15.5 mm.  However this one is full length and muzzle ring is 17.5 mm. which would indicate use in WWI. Any way here is a picture of the actual bayonet. Winterhawk

PS I would also like to thank you Trajan for your input in other posts as they were a great help in solving some of my other puzzles

[AndyBsk]

This bayonet is well known as Gendarmery used most real the serial could be Gie for Gendarmerie? Your piece is not reworked to M16/35 configuration,so mostly remained in untouched condition from WW1.

[trajan]

Thanks for your nice comments Winterhawk!  I am - like most on GWF - happy to share what I know and where necessary be corrected!

I am back in Turkey, and I thought I had bookmarked a web page from years ago on Belgian bayonet markings but it seems to have gone into the ether as I cannot open it. I'll search some of my other files later.

Julian 

[Steve1871]

Welcome to GWF. Winter hawk, thanks for the post & photo’s

Some great info, you can look up at       
 World Bayonets.com

can you take your time and add some more, detailed photo’s of pommel, and guard, blade,any markings. I only have an M89 carbine with m89 bayonet, both U.S. made. So many types/models of bayonets, no one (I think) can know them all, you piqued my interest, Now Ai have to search for one for my collection! The double edge is great

[Winterhawk]

Okay Steve for reference here is what I know:

Belgium M1916 Sword bayonet for use with the 7.65 mm. M1889 Mauser rifle. made in France by Belgian makers during WWI and used during WWI. Bayonets with the crosspiece pinned to the tang such as this one (visually identified by the tang meeting the crosspiece at a right angle), were conversions of earlier M1889 bayonets. The hooked lower crosspiece was deleted and the blade replaced.  Blade length on this one is 448 mm, not sharpened and the muzzle ring diameter is 17.5 mm.  serial #15?7 faintly marked GIe which may refer to a police use. The ricasso and the pommel are marked with a letter “ J “inside a circle. The blade probably was “blued” but at some stage cleaned and only the bluing between the grooves is left.

The scabbard is a pressed metal tube painted black Serial #84 on lip which shows considerable paint damage from use as well as having a soldiers Name, number and "Grenadiers Germany 1945" scratched in its surface.

Steve there are a number of M1916-35 around for sale. In 1935, the updated Belgian Mauser M1935 was adopted and earlier M1889 rifles altered to the M1889/36. M1916 bayonets were converted for use with the updated rifles by bushing the muzzle ring to 15.5 mm. These were also frequently shortened. Here are the requested reference photos of the unconverted M1916

[jacks back]

Here's one I think has no re furbished ring? Strange the screws are wood plugs and in opposite directions.

[jacks back]

Yeah I know it is. But I can't see a re furnishing for 35's used by Germany etc in WW2. Not alot else interesting really as to the model etc.  of course I may be wrong but it measures out right. Alot of variations in the blade lengths. 

[Winterhawk]

A bit of recent information has come to light on my  posted information. As previously mentioned:  "The scabbard is a pressed metal tube painted black Serial #84 on lip which shows considerable paint damage from use as well as having a soldiers Name, number and "Grenadiers Germany 1945" scratched in its surface." This trophy blade was brought back  by U.S. soldier Pvt. Stephen Vincent Gibas, 1925-1998.  Military serial#: 32933735 Enlisted: June 8, 1943 in Buffalo New York.  Mr. Gibas was a grenadier with the US Army and fought in Europe.

 

[jacks back]

7 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

When is not outbushed the barell ring to smaller diameter it remains a M16 configuration. There dont exist many lenght variations, belgian mostly used only longer blades and german shortened it in WW2.

 

Edited 8 March by jacks back
I didnt mean to send.

[jacks back]

That's quite interesting and as I've looked only today conflicts with other sources information but that's the whole point. You would understand I'm sure. 

[jacks back]

Excellent little added info there on German part of the history much later when the war and occupation took and re distributed WW1 outdated confiscated stores.