Sex & the Soldier!

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Were soldiers going on leave ever issued with any form of contraceptives or disinfectant kits to prevent the spread of STDs?

Ian

[Hedley Malloch]

I don't know about disinfectants and/or contraceptives, but exhortation and education were used. My great-uncle who served in the RA on the Front told me of a talk given by an MO. He reminded the men not only of the horrific effects of syphillis, but also of the treatment which was a course of mercury injections which could last for years. In the opinion of many the cure was worse than the disease. The MO ended the talk with these rousing words:

"Remember this men, a few minutes spent with Venus can mean a lifetime spent on Mercury"

I thought that was very good.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

So John Gray got it half right when he wrote 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus'

Ian

[Mike Cross]

They got a warning on the way to the front, as follows:-

The text on the inside pages is not for the faint-hearted.

[Terry_Reeves]

Just as an aside, the first casualty of 214 Army Troops Company RE (raised as the Coventry Fortress Company in March 1915) was a man who had caught syphilis within a couple of weeks of arriving in France in 1916. The Company war diarist had no compunction about naming him or his disease.

Terry Reeves

[charlesmessenger]

In France, the brothels were initially all under French civilian control, but in the forward areas the BEF was able to close them down. In the rear areas it was different, since the French remained in control.

GHQ took a pragmatic view and the result was `maisons tolerees' (apologies for lack of accent over the first `e') which existed in all the Channel ports and other towns. This was acceptance that soldiers could not be prevented from visiting brothels without an unacceptable use of RMP manpower. They were regularly inspected and one at Rouen was apparently visited by over 170,000 troops durng its first year, but only 243 VD cases resulted. So, this system appeared to work.

At home, however, there was a growing outcry over the Army allowing its soldiers to be corrupted. Therefore, in April 1918, on orders of the War Cabinet, the maisons tolerees were closed down. Haig had objected strongly, giving figures to show that the VD situation was very much worse in Britain, where brothels were illegal. Indeed, he quoted worldwide British Army figures for the week ending 2 March 1918, which revealed that 60% of reported VD cases were in UK. There was just one case in India and none in Egypt. In both countries, the Army regulated all brothels.

Righteous indignation had been allowed to prevail over the practicalities of life.

Charles M

[CROONAERT]

Is it true that officer's brothels were designated with a "Blue light", whilst those for OR's had a more common "Red Light" ?

If it is, I'll never be able to look at a police station the same way again!!!

Dave.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Dave,

I thought that was still the case

Ian

[KIRKY]

On this topic, were many children born to Tommy fathers and French women and how did the locals view this?

Are there any relatives left in the Somme area?

I have yet to hear the Brummie accent in La Poppy

TK

[john w.]

Ben MacIntyres book A foreign field traces the story of Robert Digby and Claire Dessenne... the result was Helene Digby

John

[Guest stevebec]

Looking through the service records of the ALH and Camel Corps in Egypt and Palestine, VD was a consent problem.

It appears that brothels were not under the control of Civil or Military administration as in France.

And if so had limited effect on either the women or soldiers who visited them.

There were a number of hospitals set up for the purpose of cleaning the soldiers up after getting a dose.

I wonder if the British units in Egypt suffered from the same problem?

S.B

[Roy Evans]

I seem to remember reading on the parent site some time ago, that at any given time 30+ percent of men in hospital on the western front were there with STDs. Can’t find it now though.

Roy

[paul guthrie]

I do not have figures with me but Pershing was fanatic about veneral disease and AEF did keep rate very low, much lower than BEF.

[Hedley Malloch]

On this topic, were many children born to Tommy fathers and French women and how did the locals view this?

On a cultural note, older hands in the Forum might recall that this was the subject of a very famous episode of Steptoe and Son, an excellent 60s comedy series. Harold (Harry Corbett) , the son, goes to France, falls in love with a French lady only to find out that she is the result of a dalliance between his father (Wilfred Brambell) and a Frenchwoman during WW1.

Many of course were born in wedlock. I know at least one lady whose father was an Irish soldier who met his wife here during WW2.

[CROONAERT]

12% of the US Army reported sick with some sort of venereal disease in 1917. In total ,some 57,195 contracted VD in the AEF. This was a lower proportion than that encountered in 1902, most catching it whilst still in the States (most military establishments had a brothel in the vicinity).Brothels were made out of bounds to US troops some 4 months after their arrival in France.

In the British Army, brothels were made out of bounds in May 1918, though the authorities chose to turn a blind eye.

If any one is interested ( ), the typical "going rate" in these establishments was 15 Francs ($2.85, back then) for 30 mins. Why I have these details, I don't know. Sometimes I worry myself!!!

Dave.

[Roy Evans]

If any one is interested ( ), the typical "going rate" in these establishments was 15 Francs ($2.85, back then) for 30 mins.

Dave.

Dave,

Was this in the Blue Light establishments or the Red Light Ones?!!!

[John_Hartley]

My grandfather's pay book suggests he would have been paid 5 francs a week. He was a tight-fisted old so-and-so (at least in old age) and I can't see him forking out three weeks pay. But then again......................

John

[Mike Cross]

Some of the contents from the WW1 leaflet mentioned earlier.

Note the suggestion that more would die from these impure activities than from German Bullets.

[CROONAERT]

My grandfather's pay book suggests he would have been paid 5 francs a week. He was a tight-fisted old so-and-so (at least in old age) and I can't see him forking out three weeks pay. But then again......................

John

...3 weeks???? It was just over two and a half day's pay for our U.S. allies and the Canadians (privates) ,according to the pay books in my possession.

Roy.

Red light. I'm afraid I don't have an officer's "price list". (Thankfully! - see, I am normal!!! )

Dave.

[mordac]

In my reading of WW1 memoirs, I've never come across an author who visited a brothel. They always comment on their mates visit to the pleasure palaces. Here's what my buddy Jack told me of his experience...

Garth

[Jonathan Saunders]

If I remember rightly Frederic Manning in his semi-autobigraphical/fictional account of life in the and out of the trenches, HER PRIVATES WE, visits a brothel or becomes romantically linked to a girl towards the end of the book.

Completely fictional and late one night a few weeks ago there was a French WW1 film on ... the subtitles were difficult to follow due to alcoholic intake but the three main characters - all disfigured soldiers had nights out from hospital to prove themselves still men. I think I fell asleep before the end.

[michaeldr]

Can I take this thread back to Ian's original question and then sneak in one of my own:

Were the troops issued with contraceptives?

and the supplementary

When did Tommy realise the full range of potential uses for the rubber sheath?

Many an old infantryman knows that there is no better, more effective, aid to keeping your rifle clean, than putting a condom over the muzzle: it keeps out rain, snow, mud, dust, sand, etc and what ever else you're likely to encounter in the field. How many like me also had a quiet chuckle to themselves as they watched TV newsreels from the recent Gulf War and noticed that even today and despite all technological advances, the sheath is still being used in this traditional way to keep the desert out of the rifle.

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Guest tintin]

An old guy who drops in on our band meetings was an RAMC Special Duties Orderly during his National Service. This trade group dealt entirely with VD - treatment, prophylaxsis and laboratory work.It was several months before he felt able to tell his parents what he did in the Army....

Our friend worked in a laboratory in the Canal Zone where he had to identify slides to help diagnose who had what.

VD was classed as a "self inflicted wound" and a soldier who contracted it could be punished. However, soldiers who visited the prophylatic station shortly after intercourse could not be charged as they had taken all reasonable steps to avoid infection.A confidential book was kept by the RAMC at the station for evidential purposes.

I realise this is a forum intended for all ages and both genders so will avoid being too graphic, but prophylaxsis involved the internal application of chemicals to the part at risk of being infected with the aid of a rubber bulb. I do not know when the British Army introduced this system, but the US troops had it in place prior to the AEF leaving America.

The CEF and the AEF both made feature films to warn their troops, the Canadian one was very daring as the victim is an officer...

On a happier note you can blouse your trousers very smartly with durexs..

[Tim Birch]

At nearly 450 views in a comparatively few number of days this topic must be a record breaker. No need to analyse why, the title contains a word which arouses (no pun intended) curiosity in most human beings - and its not soldier!

Tim

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Tim,

Well I did want to get the thread noticed

After everyones posts on this thread, I have come to the conclusion that the 'education' of soldiers was still Victorian 'scaremongery and damnation' stuff, but at least it has cleared up ( ) issues related to soldiers with STDs and SIWs.

Ian