Medal card interpretation from 1914

[PeterJ]

Hi,

I just managed to get hold of the document describing the medals my great-grandfather got during the first month of ww1 in 1914. Apparently he was in the B.E.F in France up until mid-september and earned three medals and in the "Remarks" column it states "Dis 17.12.14" (which should be his discharge date) but below that it states "para 399 KR". Does anyone know what paragraph 399 in the Kings regulations mean? I see a lot of references in the other posts for 392 but none for 399.

Thankful for any insights in this!

 

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, PeterJ said:

 

I just managed to get hold of the document describing the medals my great-grandfather got during the first month of ww1 in 1914. Apparently he was in the B.E.F in France up until mid-september and earned three medals and in the "Remarks" column it states "Dis 17.12.14" (which should be his discharge date) but below that it states "para 399 KR". Does anyone know what paragraph 399 in the Kings regulations mean? I see a lot of references in the other posts for 392 but none for 399.

Thankful for any insights in this!

Who is he ?

Craig

[ss002d6252]

Para 399KR was an instruction towards how para 392KR discharges were to be made.



Craig

[PeterJ]

That is excellent information Craig, thank you so much! His name was Charles Leonard Jones, reg no. 8685 attached to the 2nd Welch regiment. Next step is to find out more about what the 2nd Welch went through during the Battle of Mons and the following retreat.

Cheers!

 

[Keith_history_buff]

This man has a surviving WW1 service record, within the WO 364 series, which is available via FindMyPast, and should also be available via Ancestry. It is likely to give more detail as to the wound that led to his medical discharge from the army. It should tell you on what date he enlisted in the army.

It would appear that he served in the militia beforehand, and has a surviving record in the WO 96 series, available via FindMyPast and Fold3 subscription sites for online genealogy.

[PeterJ]

That is great info Keith! I did manage to find some of his military records but am unsure if they were part of the WO 364 series, I need to go check. There is a nice record detailing his enlistment, some pre-ww1 postings etc. but in terms of his ww1 involvement there is just one line stating B.E.F with start and end date together with 2nd Bat. Welch. Do you think there is more information that can be found on the actual history of this month in France?

Thanks!

 

[TEW]

Is his number actually 8586 rather than 8685?

TEW

[ss002d6252]

6 minutes ago, TEW said:

Is his number actually 8586 rather than 8685?

TEW

It appears so.

https://www.fold3.com/image/702155306?terms=8586,jones,charles

The 17513/D pension number would date around February /March 1915.

Craig

[TEW]

The WO364 record is predominantly for service 1905 - 1911 India, S. Africa and Egypt but does indicate 31 days service with BEF Aug-Sept 1914.

Just to check this is the right man his NOK is shown as James Heal of Clevdon, Bristol.

Born circa 1885.

Discharged as Being found physically unfit for further service. Does look like Para 399 KR but judging from Craig's extract 399 is an instruction for discharges under 392 xvi.

TEW

 

Edited 19 January , 2022 by TEW

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, TEW said:

The WO364 record is predominantly for service 1905 - 1911 India, S. Africa and Egypt but does indicate 31 days service with BEF Aug-Sept 1914.

Just to check this is the right man his NOK is shown as James Heal of Clevdon, Bristol. Born circa 1885.

Discharged as Being found physically unfit for further service. Does look like Para 399 KR but judging from Craig's extract 399 is an instruction for discharges under 392 xvi.

TEW

This is the pension ledger for 8586.

https://www.fold3.com/image/644187633?terms=8586,jones,charles

Craig

[TEW]

There is an odd casualty list entry for:

C Jones 8586 L/Cpl. Royal Welsh Fusiliers admitted Connaught Hospital Sept 1914. I think this should be John Jones rather than C. Bit of a red herring to be wary of.

No indication of an injury for 8586 CLJ.

VDH would normally get a discharge under 392 xvi I think.

I guess the clerk filling out the discharge details had to read the 399 instruction and wrote that intead of 392.

TEW

 

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, TEW said:

 

I guess the clerk filling out the discharge details had to read the 399 instruction and wrote that intead of 392.

I think that's likely correct. Rather than the actual section for the discharge, he just wrote the para for the actual instructions. 392 xvi would be typical for VDH.

Craig

[PeterJ]

3 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

It appears so.

https://www.fold3.com/image/702155306?terms=8586,jones,charles

The 17513/D pension number would date around February /March 1915.

Craig

That is a good catch TEW and Craig, you are absolutely correct, my apologies!

[PeterJ]

3 hours ago, TEW said:

The WO364 record is predominantly for service 1905 - 1911 India, S. Africa and Egypt but does indicate 31 days service with BEF Aug-Sept 1914.

Just to check this is the right man his NOK is shown as James Heal of Clevdon, Bristol.

Born circa 1885.

Discharged as Being found physically unfit for further service. Does look like Para 399 KR but judging from Craig's extract 399 is an instruction for discharges under 392 xvi.

TEW

 

That is the record I found as well, thanks for checking. So it appears as if that is what we can find out about his service which is amazing although more info about his service in ww1 would be even better. But I can guess what he went through based on the records we already have.

3 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

This is the pension ledger for 8586.

https://www.fold3.com/image/644187633?terms=8586,jones,charles

Craig

Amazing find Craig!!

[PeterJ]

3 hours ago, TEW said:

There is an odd casualty list entry for:

C Jones 8586 L/Cpl. Royal Welsh Fusiliers admitted Connaught Hospital Sept 1914. I think this should be John Jones rather than C. Bit of a red herring to be wary of.

No indication of an injury for 8586 CLJ.

VDH would normally get a discharge under 392 xvi I think.

I guess the clerk filling out the discharge details had to read the 399 instruction and wrote that intead of 392.

TEW

 

Interesting! I am Swedish myself and have a hard time understanding the Welsh regiments and geography 😁 His papers state "Welsh Regiment" I believe and that is different from the Royal Welsh Fusilers ? Or is that a terminology issue on my part?

My guess exactly on the 392 discharge. 

Again, I am so thankful for the time you and Craig have spent on this.

Out of curiosity; do you know of any other records that could help me from his time in Egypt/South Africa or India? Some kind of embarkation documents, local records or similar? I can hardly find anything on Google about the Welsh Regiment being abroad after the Boer War.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I had to read again the temporary address on his pension card, which after much squinting, I interpret as " 5 Sketty Row, Loughor".

(Not "5 Shi**y Row", which is what I first saw...

[TEW]

I also saw Shi**y Row, there may have been many such named places across the UK with their names tidied up early-Victorian period. Shute is a not uncommon tidy version.

Anyway, Peter yes Welsh Regiment and Royal Welsh Fusiliers are different regiments, I think the example for RWF is a mistake. Just so you're aware, there maybe records under Welch Regiment as well as Welsh.

The only other records that might exist are Campaign Medals for India, S. Africa and Egypt although I don't know what the actual campaigns (if any) were.

TEW

[PeterJ]

20 minutes ago, TEW said:

I also saw Shi**y Row, there may have been many such named places across the UK with their names tidied up early-Victorian period. Shute is a not uncommon tidy version.

Anyway, Peter yes Welsh Regiment and Royal Welsh Fusiliers are different regiments, I think the example for RWF is a mistake. Just so you're aware, there maybe records under Welch Regiment as well as Welsh.

The only other records that might exist are Campaign Medals for India, S. Africa and Egypt although I don't know what the actual campaigns (if any) were.

TEW

Good idea, I will see if I can find anything for campaign medals! 

[PRC]

As it doesn't look like anyone else has mentioned it, the 2nd Battalion Welsh Regiment War Diary can currently be downloaded for free from the UK National Archive. You do have to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one, even that can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just clicl on "Sign in" and follow the instructions - no financial details required. The Diary for 1914 can be found in the National Archive catalogue here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14052744

Very unlikely to mention him by name, but will give some idea of where they were and what they were up to.

Cheers,
Peter

[PeterJ]

38 minutes ago, PRC said:

As it doesn't look like anyone else has mentioned it, the 2nd Battalion Welsh Regiment War Diary can currently be downloaded for free from the UK National Archive. You do have to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one, even that can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just clicl on "Sign in" and follow the instructions - no financial details required. The Diary for 1914 can be found in the National Archive catalogue here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14052744

Very unlikely to mention him by name, but will give some idea of where they were and what they were up to.

Cheers,
Peter

Wow, what a treasure! Just bought it! Now I just have learn how to read the old text 😁

Cheers!

[Hywyn]

On 19/01/2022 at 09:54, TEW said:

There is an odd casualty list entry for:

C Jones 8586 L/Cpl. Royal Welsh Fusiliers admitted Connaught Hospital Sept 1914. I think this should be John Jones rather than C. Bit of a red herring to be wary of.

No indication of an injury for 8586 CLJ.

 

TEW

 

8586 John Allen Jones was one of around 200 RWF 4th Bn men to France 10 7 1916 & posted attached 1st 6th Welsh Regt 19 7 1916. On 2 9 1916 most but not all were transferred to 6th Welsh (6th Welsh number range 15503/266905 to 15680/267071) The 8586 number denotes enlistment/call up February 1916.

He cannot therefore have been on a Sept 1914 list. Is the list a Times newspaper list? It might it still be the thread subject i.e a typo in the newspaper? His MIC shows he entered France 13 8 1914.

[Keith_history_buff]

I no longer have access to Ancestry. His pension card states that he was discharged on 17 December 1914. Did he ever put in a claim for a Silver War Badge? Or would it have been patently obvious that he was medically discharged from the army?

I have come across some of the first men who were maimed, captured whilst wounded and repatriated who never bothered. In one particular case, he became so well known that nobody would have dared to give him the white feather treatment.

[ss002d6252]

11 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I no longer have access to Ancestry. His pension card states that he was discharged on 17 December 1914. Did he ever put in a claim for a Silver War Badge? Or would it have been patently obvious that he was medically discharged from the army?

I have come across some of the first men who were maimed, captured whilst wounded and repatriated who never bothered. In one particular case, he became so well known that nobody would have dared to give him the white feather treatment.

No sign of a SWB that I could see but a lot of early ones never applied for them.

Craig