A Regular Officer has no surviving record, nor a long number? Can anything be inferred?

[Promenade]

You may be interested in the following (unfortunately do not have time to dig deeper). Not sure what this proves though: -

Of the 588 Worcs Regt associated Officers killed 67 do not have papers

Of the 798 Liverpool Regt associated Officers killed 39 do not have papers

Of the 488 Glos Regt associated Officers killed 58 do not have papers

 

[Skipman]

I'm sure I have seen a full list of lost files somewhere?

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/the-1940-fire-at-arnside-street/

 

Mike

[rolt968]

1 hour ago, Skipman said:

I'm sure I have seen a full list of lost files somewhere?

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/the-1940-fire-at-arnside-street/

 

Mike

Thank you Mike, I was sure I had seen that somewhere.

"Officers’ records of service (all that is left now is a miscellaneous file)", I knew I had seen something like that!  "Miscellaneous file" is a much better term than "correspondence  file".

RM

[jay dubaya]

Apologies for my late reply. My memory has also failed with respect to what I posted above. The file in question had details that were not contained in said officers file which couldn’t be obtained at the time (no reason given) and is today non existent. The officers file that I did find in the CWGC archive is Canadian so doesn’t apply to the OP. From my scant experience of officer files from the NA around 15% do not exist.

[rflory]

rolt968 wrote: "My man is Lt. Ronald Francis Simson, RFA."

There is a three-page bio and a portrait photo of Lt. Ronald Francis Simson, RFA in Rugby Football Internationals Roll of Honour. There is also a bio and photo of him in Bond of Sacrifice, Volume 1.  The Edinburgh Academy Register 1824-1914 and the War Supplement to Edinburgh Academy Register have biographical details on him.

WO 338 lists a Lt. R. F. Simson, RHA & RFA with a long number of 16521,  but when I checked that number in the lists of officers papers with pre-1901 births held by MoD that number comes up with a surname of a different officer.  I have found that the papers of a number of officers with long numbers under 50,000 appear to be missing, especially if they died during the war. 

rolt968 wrote: "My man is Lt. Ronald Francis Simson, RFA."

There is a three-page bio and a portrait photo of Lt. Ronald Francis Simson, RFA in Rugby Football Internationals Roll of Honour. There is also a bio and photo of him in Bond of Sacrifice, Volume 1.  The Edinburgh Academy Register 1824-1914 and the War Supplement to Edinburgh Academy Register have biographical details on him.

WO 338 lists a Lt. R. F. Simson, RHA & RFA with a long number of 16521,  but when I checked that number in the lists of officers papers with pre-1901 births held by MoD that number comes up with a surname of a different officer.  I have found that the papers of a number of officers with long numbers under 50,000 appear to be missing, especially if they died during the war. 

[rolt968]

On 22/01/2022 at 18:12, rflory said:

rolt968 wrote: "My man is Lt. Ronald Francis Simson, RFA."

There is a three-page bio and a portrait photo of Lt. Ronald Francis Simson, RFA in Rugby Football Internationals Roll of Honour. There is also a bio and photo of him in Bond of Sacrifice, Volume 1.  The Edinburgh Academy Register 1824-1914 and the War Supplement to Edinburgh Academy Register have biographical details on him.

WO 338 lists a Lt. R. F. Simson, RHA & RFA with a long number of 16521,  but when I checked that number in the lists of officers papers with pre-1901 births held by MoD that number comes up with a surname of a different officer.  I have found that the papers of a number of officers with long numbers under 50,000 appear to be missing, especially if they died during the war. 

rolt968 wrote: "My man is Lt. Ronald Francis Simson, RFA."

There is a three-page bio and a portrait photo of Lt. Ronald Francis Simson, RFA in Rugby Football Internationals Roll of Honour. There is also a bio and photo of him in Bond of Sacrifice, Volume 1.  The Edinburgh Academy Register 1824-1914 and the War Supplement to Edinburgh Academy Register have biographical details on him.

Thank you for all that. I recently found the Bond of Sacrifice entry. A particular thank you for the Edinburgh Academy Register entries which I had actually found with guidance from someone on the forum, filed away and forgotten about!

Ronald Francis Simson is probably the most documented casualty on any of the war memorials I have researched - all more remarkable since no officer's record survives and the battery war diary is missing. Incidentally does the Rugby Football Internationals Roll of Honour mention that that his second cousin, Ernest David Simson played for Scotland between 1902 and 1906?

RM

[rolt968]

On 22/01/2022 at 18:12, rflory said:

WO 338 lists a Lt. R. F. Simson, RHA & RFA with a long number of 16521,  but when I checked that number in the lists of officers papers with pre-1901 births held by MoD that number comes up with a surname of a different officer.  I have found that the papers of a number of officers with long numbers under 50,000 appear to be missing, especially if they died during the war. 

This is very interesting.

1. I wonder if some/all "miscellaneous files" for officers who were killed in 1914 were returned to the main file or destroyed quite early and hence ther was no long to number tp access the file.

2. Since the long number was not a serial number for the officer but an index for finding his "miscellaneous file", I wonder if a long number might have been reused.

RM

[rolt968]

Captain Percy William Norman Fraser DSO, 2 Cameron Highlanders (kia 23 February 1915) is another regular officer killed early in the war for whom there is no officer's record at The National Archives.

[stiletto_33853]

I am afraid the TNA listing leave a lot to be desired. I have mentioned the numerous Rifle Brigade officers that are listed as Connaught Rangers, but I have also come across files that contain two or three officers within the file.

On one occasion, for a member of this forum, I requested a file to copy for them. Although a common name (Smith) there was a Tank Corps, ASC and KRRC officers details all combined in one file. This has happened a few times, not pointing the finger at TNA, might be the War Office with the TNA just copying the details given them.

Certainly when I have pointed out the numerous mistakes with Rifle Brigade officers listed as Connaught Rangers their reply has been that they are not Regimental specialists, but it does make one wonder how many of such cases have occurred and just how many officers files are there but not listed.

Andy

[rolt968]

While there are indexing mistakes, certainly no record ahd survived at Kew for a number of regular officers killed early in the war.

i have found yet another one.

All of the "missing" officers I have found seem to have the following in common:

• They had served for some time before WW1 (ie were not commissioned in 1914)
• Were killed early in the war
• They don't seem to have long numbers (need to check this for my last find)
• They were single and had no dependants
• No pension was awarded (or applied for) (also need to check this for my last find)

RM

[Terry_Reeves]

With regard to officers files. Instructions to Weeders, revised January 1932 had this to say:

Officers, Nurses etc DECEASED. Files may be (generally speaking) destroyed three years after their death, but care must be taken retain any files  as to:

Effects (six years)

Certificates (see below under b) )

Widows pensions, and compassionate allowance to children, so long as claimable.

Retirement files, complete statement of service, medical and wound boards etc., or any documents upon which any future claim might be based.

11. The following classes of documents will be RETAINED

a) Files relating to:

Major building operations.

Important colonial questions, garrisons, military contributions etc.

Standing Committees.

Effects , Officers and Soldiers’ (for six years after distribution).

Unclaimed effects.

Intelligence, Military.

Legislation, whether actual or proposed.

Mobilisation questions (subject to the provision of para. 7)

 

Officers , Nurses, etc LIVING. Only unimportant files more than 10 years old may be destroyed.

Notes for the guidance of weeders engaged in weeding the personal files of Officers, Nurses etc. are available for issue to those concerned.

b) Files containing

Rulings by the Secretary of State, Field Marshall, and Military Members.

Correspondence with pubic department on subjects or a more or less permanent nature.

Minutes or documents signed a Secretary of State.

Proceedings of medical boards, wound boards etc.

Reports by officers on the circumstances of their capture as Prisoner of War.

Legal decisions by the Treasury Solicitor.

 

TR

Edited 19 November , 2022 by Terry_Reeves