RAMC uniform - insignia

[Mansell]

2 minutes ago, Mansell said:

 

Craig, I looked at that, and think it says 'H HItchen  Northwich'.  

 

Also, in the previous post about numbers, I meant to say that the long / high service number for Tim Mansell (which you helpfully gave as August 1915) could possibly be explained by a new number being allocated on transfer to RAMC?

Here is a random photograph with the same photographer's name - H Hitchen Northwich

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, Mansell said:

Also, in the previous post about numbers, I meant to say that the long / high service number for Tim Mansell (which you helpfully gave as August 1915) could possibly be explained by a new number being allocated on transfer to RAMC?

Correct.

Quote

Craig, I looked at that, and think it says 'H HItchen  Northwich'.  

That's what I thought as well.

The nearest pre-war camp was in August 1914 when they were at Conwy Camp in North Wales, not a huge distance for a photographer looking for the amount of work that a camp would provide.

 

Craig

 

[Mansell]

1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

Correct.

That's what I thought as well.

The nearest pre-war camp was in August 1914 when they were at Conwy Camp in North Wales, not a huge distance for a photographer looking for the amount of work that a camp would provide.

 

Craig

 

Yes that seems to fit.  I would very much like some corroboration of the pre-war point though, from a uniform / equipment expert on here because that would make this photo the only piece of evidence I have to show Tim Mansell was in the DLI TF.  Just in case I've missed something, here is Tim's post-war notice confirming transfer to there reserve (and showing your August 1915 RAMC date too). 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

Looking at this again, it would suggest he had no wartime service with anyone prior to the RAMC.



How certain are we that it is Tim in the DLI ? - family stories can be notoriously distorted with the passage of time.

Craig

[Mansell]

47 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Looking at this again, it would suggest he had no wartime service with anyone prior to the RAMC.



How certain are we that it is Tim in the DLI ? - family stories can be notoriously distorted with the passage of time.

Craig

Exactly Craig, that's really why I'd like the DLI camp photo unambiguously identified either as pre- or post-war. The first 8 DLI summer camp after the war was Scarborough, 1920.  Wouldnt at least some of the men in the camp picture be wearing medal stripes?  

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, Mansell said:

Exactly Craig, that's really why I'd like the DLI camp photo unambiguously identified either as pre- or post-war. The first 8 DLI summer camp after the war was Scarborough, 1920.  Wouldnt at least some of the men in the camp picture be wearing medal stripes?  

Sorry for the delayed reply, I saw your first image of the camp, but was engaged elsewhere and had to wait till now to respond.  The four tier shoulder titles indicate a prewar summer training camp, quite possibly in 1914, when there was excited anticipation and a large turnout.  In a majority of cases the units received their mobilisation order while at camp and then moved directly to their preordained assembly stations.  The titles changed both during and after the war, so there’s no doubt that the photo is prewar. 

Edited 9 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Mansell]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Sorry for the delayed reply, I saw your first image of the camp, but was engaged elsewhere and had to wait till now to respond.  The three tier shoulder titles indicate a prewar summer training camp, quite possibly in 1914, when there was excited anticipation and a large turnout.  In a majority of cases the units received their mobilisation order while at camps and then moved directly to their preordained assembly stations. 

Excellent, thank you Frogsmile, I’m grateful for this. I just wonder why there’s no record of Tim Mansell’s DLI service, but I’m not at all competent to search / find. As a matter of interest, what were the 3 items on the epaulettes?

thanks again.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Mansell said:

Excellent, thank you Frogsmile, I’m grateful for this. I just wonder why there’s no record of Tim Mansell’s DLI service, but I’m not at all competent to search / find. As a matter of interest, what were the 3 items on the epaulettes?

thanks again.

I was trying to find a single image as an illustration, but had to improvise one.  It was four tiers:  T over 8 over bugle-horn over DURHAM (I’d momentarily forgotten the bugle aspect only worn by light infantry units).  

Edited 9 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, Mansell said:

Excellent, thank you Frogsmile, I’m grateful for this. I just wonder why there’s no record of Tim Mansell’s DLI service, but I’m not at all competent to search / find. As a matter of interest, what were the 3 items on the epaulettes?

thanks again.

Pre-war only TF records were meant to be culled after a period of time, and the record office burning saw for a lot more.

Craig

[Mansell]

23 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Sorry for the delayed reply, I saw your first image of the camp, but was engaged elsewhere and had to wait till now to respond.  The four tier shoulder titles indicate a prewar summer training camp, quite possibly in 1914, when there was excited anticipation and a large turnout.  In a majority of cases the units received their mobilisation order while at camp and then moved directly to their preordained assembly stations.  The titles changed both during and after the war, so there’s no doubt that the photo is prewar. 

 Frogsmile, this is perfect, exactly what I have needed and I'm very grateful indeed for the trouble you've taken. 

Thank you. 

Mansell

[Mansell]

23 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Pre-war only TF records were meant to be culled after a period of time, and the record office burning saw for a lot more.

Craig

Craig, thank you very much for this.  I'll stop looking for what seems not to exist and it's comfort to know this from an expert. 

Thanks again.

 

Mansell

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, Mansell said:

 Frogsmile, this is perfect, exactly what I have needed and I'm very grateful indeed for the trouble you've taken. 

Thank you. 

Mansell

I’m pleased to have helped, they are very interesting photos, especially those taken whilst on active service, but also the prewar camp.  There are rather a lot of these latter photos, but no one so far has thought to trace and collect them into one volume and perhaps publish what would be a quite significant book showing Britain’s auxiliary forces on the brink of an epic cataclysm that would have such profound consequences for the Empire.

Edited 10 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Mansell]

Hi Frogsmile, I wonder if you could help identify the medal ribbons worn by the three older soldiers in this photo.  It was taken in 1915 at Larkhill Camp Salisbury Plain. 

I expect some will be from the South African War but I've had no luck.  

Thank you.

 

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, Mansell said:

Hi Frogsmile, I wonder if you could help identify the medal ribbons worn by the three older soldiers in this photo.  It was taken in 1915 at Larkhill Camp Salisbury Plain. 

I expect some will be from the South African War but I've had no luck.  

Thank you.

 

Unusual to see three WOI seated together like that.  I’m afraid the ribbons are too blurred for me to be 100% positive and I also only have a phone screen to scrutinise them with.  Certainly I think that one of the WOI and one Sergeant have King’s and Queen’s South Africa medals, plus there appear to be some India General Service medals on show.  I’m wondering if the most junior medal might be a 1910 Coronation medal.

The best medal spotters are @CorporalPunishment, @Andrew Uptonand @RNCVR so I’ll give them a shout out.

Edited 13 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

Very nice photo - Cooks or Bakers at a hospital perhaps?  The middle WO with head tilted to his right is easy, his ribbon is likely a QSA. There might be another ribbon there but I am unable to make it out.

The WO on his right with crossed hands is somewhat harder, but my best guess would be Queen's Soudan of 1899 (yellow/ black with narrow red stripe center) QSA, KSA, then Khedives Soudan(yellow/dark blue/yellow) 1896-1908. There seems to be another ribbon but I am unable to maker it out, it could well be an Army LS.

The WO with white moustache is a little more difficult, & enlarging does not really assist. His first couple(appears to be two) ribbons are too bright/light to be a Queens Soudan or an IGS, so I am guessing perhaps Egypt 1882-88, another?, then Army LS, & Khedives star(blue ribbon). There were Egypt (1882-88) campaign medals/ribbons worn by 1WW soldiers (& sailors), & this WO appears to be older than his two mates.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, RNCVR said:

Very nice photo - Cooks or Bakers at a hospital perhaps?  The middle WO with head tilted to his right is easy, his ribbon is likely a QSA. There might be another ribbon there but I am unable to make it out.

The WO on his right with crossed hands is somewhat harder, but my best guess would be Queen's Soudan of 1899 (yellow/ black with narrow red stripe center) QSA, KSA, then Khedives Soudan(yellow/dark blue/yellow) 1896-1908. There seems to be another ribbon but I am unable to maker it out, it could well be an Army LS.

The WO with white moustache is a little more difficult, & enlarging does not really assist. His first couple(appears to be two) ribbons are too bright/light to be a Queens Soudan or an IGS, so I am guessing perhaps Egypt 1882-88, another?, then Army LS, & Khedives star(blue ribbon). There were Egypt (1882-88) campaign medals/ribbons worn by 1WW soldiers (& sailors), & this WO appears to be older than his two mates.

I feel you’ve made a good stab at that Bryan and your suggestions all make sense.  The men in canvas fatigue uniform do indeed appear to be regimental cooks, I don’t think that they’re ASC bakers.

Edited 14 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

A Coronation medal is also a possibility, but in that time frame Coronation medals were worn first in order prior to campaign medals.

I dont know the drill for awarding Coronation medals to OR's, so unable to comment on that aspect.

Both the Edward VII & George V Coronation medals had dark ribbons & in the case of the older WO his first couple of ribbons appear quite lighter in colour. But with the vagaries of Orthochromatic film who knows?

[healdav]

5 hours ago, RNCVR said:

A Coronation medal is also a possibility, but in that time frame Coronation medals were worn first in order prior to campaign medals.

I dont know the drill for awarding Coronation medals to OR's, so unable to comment on that aspect.

Both the Edward VII & George V Coronation medals had dark ribbons & in the case of the older WO his first couple of ribbons appear quite lighter in colour. But with the vagaries of Orthochromatic film who knows?

My father got a Coronation Medal in 1953. As far as I am aware every ship, regiment, civil service department, was allocated a certain number, and it was up to the authorities involved in that to allocate the medals. Most, I have a feeling, were simply names drawn from a hat or perhaps bowler!

[FROGSMILE]

The criterion for Coronation medals in Britain has varied according to the wealth of the nation, and the political attitudes and dogma of the government in office at the time that the medals were issued. Sometimes they were issued in limited batches to units and civil institutions and left to them to decide on the issue and on other occasions every person serving or in employment at the time received one.  They invariably polarise and stir up Republican and Royalist sentiments.  Similarly the Dominions invariably do their own thing.

Edited 14 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Mansell]

Dear Frogsmile and RNCVR, thank you both for considering the photo and giving this very helpful information.  Could you tell me what the IGS is mentioned in your reply?

The men in whites include my uncle Tim Mansell, RAMC. I hope the photo I've tried to attach here is clear read but he writes to his mother saying he was an advance party going to Salisbury Plains as cooks.  And now I've been studying photos which have been in the family for generations I can see another interesting detail in an image you previously helped with Frogsmile.  I'll post it after this. 

Thank you both very much.

 

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Mansell said:

Dear Frogsmile and RNCVR, thank you both for considering the photo and giving this very helpful information.  Could you tell me what the IGS is mentioned in your reply?

The men in whites include my uncle Tim Mansell, RAMC. I hope the photo I've tried to attach here is clear read but he writes to his mother saying he was an advance party going to Salisbury Plains as cooks.  And now I've been studying photos which have been in the family for generations I can see another interesting detail in an image you previously helped with Frogsmile.  I'll post it after this. 

Thank you both very much.

 

Thank you for posting such interesting photos.  IGS refers to the India General Service medal.

[Mansell]

Frogsmile and RNCVR, 

Another photo of my uncle Tim previously posted shows the men wearing a cuff band 'RP'.  I assume this is Regimental Police?  But being all RAMC was this a temporary / additional duty? Did one have to volunteer? 

Thank you. 

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, Mansell said:

Frogsmile and RNCVR, 

Another photo of my uncle Tim previously posted shows the men wearing a cuff band 'RP'.  I assume this is Regimental Police?  But being all RAMC was this a temporary / additional duty? Did one have to volunteer? 

Thank you. 

Yes it’s a typical detachment of organic unit level police, invariably known in the British Army as Regimental Police (RP), or alternatively at that time Regimental Military Police.  The latter description not to be confused with the Military Mounted Police and Military Foot Police organised under a structure of Provost Officers to police the Armies at formation level.

The RP were invariably organised under the unit’s Adjutant and its Sergeant Major to whom they answered and reported on a daily basis.  They also provided the staffing of a Guardroom/Guardhouse at unit level and supervised soldiers undergoing local punishment (confinement to barracks and various fatigue duties set as punishment).  The RP section was traditionally headed by a Provost Sergeant selected by the officer commanding the unit in accordance with advice from the sergeant major.  In some units this might instead be a Provost Corporal where the establishment does not permit, or facilitate a sergeant.  Arm bands, or at that time more commonly wristlets, were a standard means of identification.  You can read more about them here: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/175861-regimental-police/#comment-1711084

NB.  In good units soldiers were usually rotated through regimental police duties for periods of temporary duty so that no one became jaded, or a bully, although inevitably older, experienced NCOs sometimes endured in the role.

 

Edited 15 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Mansell]

Frogsmile, Once again thank you very much for this invaluable detail. Looking at the link you included I see on one photo exactly the same cuff band being worn.  It's fascinating.  I wish my relatives were alive to answer so many questions I would now like to ask. 

Until another query crops up, thank you and best wishes.

 

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Mansell said:

Frogsmile, Once again thank you very much for this invaluable detail. Looking at the link you included I see on one photo exactly the same cuff band being worn.  It's fascinating.  I wish my relatives were alive to answer so many questions I would now like to ask. 

Until another query crops up, thank you and best wishes.

 

I’m glad to help.  Please add further queries at any time.  Many units made up their own wristlets, as you saw at the link, but a basic version was also available via the Army’s ordnance supply chain.

Edited 15 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE