To attack and hold Hill 60 in April 1915 or just attack. When was the decision made?

[David_Blanchard]

I struggling to find when the decision was made to attack and hold Hill 60 by the 5 Division in April 1915. General Morland OC 5 Division on the 9 April had still not reached a decision or was waiting for 2 Corps or 2 Army to make the decision to attack and then hold Hill 60- the document here suggests there was two alternatives to attack Hill 60 as a raid then withdraw or attack and hold.
 

The latter decision was made by 17 April when the 13 Brigade attacked and took the hill. The  decision to then hold Hill 60 has been criticised by the Official History (OH vol 1 1915 page 167) due to the large number of casualties in the days that followed. 

However, the OH or the war diaries of the 5th Division, 13 Brigade, 2 Corps - as far as I can see don’t include who made the decision and when. Presumably between 10 and 17 April. (The WD of 2 Army, appears to be all over the place) 

Any help with this enquiry appreciated. 
 

David 

Edited 3 December , 2021 by David_Blanchard

[Bob Davies]

On 03/12/2021 at 14:07, David_Blanchard said:

Any help with this enquiry appreciated. 

Hi David, this link to a 5 Div WD may help you; https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14053102 The 15 Infantry Brigade WD contains some interesting information but that is where I got side tracked ;-) . Regards, Bob. More 5 Div WD here;https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=WO+95+1512

[David_Blanchard]

Thanks Bob. I have looked through these war diaries but there is no specific information concerned with when the order changed to hold the hill once it was attacked.

 

David 

[Bob Davies]

7 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

I have looked through these war diaries but there is no specific information concerned with when the order changed to hold the hill once it was attacked.

Hi David, the only clue I could find was the Secret Memorandum from Brigadier General Mc Gowan saying in a few words that he is determined it should go ahead and succeed. As he mentions the taking of the hill to be the preferred outcome (your document), this must have been made when he wrote the memorandum the 16th and no mention of plan ii.  In another document signed by  Lieutenant General Charles Fergusson (a bit odd as The Long Long Trail says and I quote LLT 'On 18 October, with Major-General Sir C. Fergusson having been ordered home to take command of 9th (Scottish) Division, he was succeeded by Major-General T. N. L. Morland', ) Is he still with the 5th Division?)  This is also dated 16th. That is my understanding of the situation, I do not mean to contradict or confuse you or anyone. Best wishes, Bob.

[Bob Davies]

Another snippet I came across was from the 46th North Midland DIV. An operations order dated 17th April 1915 for the Lincoln and Leicester Brigade to assist the attack with rifle fire, presumably to harass the flanks of the enemy as mentioned in the memo from Lieutenant General Charles Fergusson seen above. Regards, Bob.

[David_Blanchard]

Bob,

thanks again for your help with this enquiry.

 

David 

[AOK4]

8 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

Another snippet I came across was from the 46th North Midland DIV. An operations order dated 17th April 1915 for the Lincoln and Leicester Brigade to assist the attack with rifle fire, presumably to harass the flanks of the enemy as mentioned in the memo from Lieutenant General Charles Fergusson seen above. Regards, Bob.

Look at point 6! Who keeps saying that the Allies were didn't know of an impending German gas attack?

[Bob Davies]

6 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Look at point 6! Who keeps saying that the Allies were didn't know of an impending German gas attack?

Yes AOK4, the 46 North Midland Territorials were certainly aware that gas might be used against them, it is mentioned in the war diaries from battalion level upwards, so this information I presume must have come from the top? We must be aware of wandering off Davids topic here. Regards, Bob.

13 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

thanks again for your help with this enquiry.

Happy to help David, regards, Bob.

[Biltea]

Hi David

I've just re-read Morland's diaries (which I edited, and were published in 2015). He doesn't actually mention when the decision was taken to attack Hill 60. However, various comments he made may assist in this matter.

9.4.15.......see O'Gowan (Brigadier-General Wanless O'Gowan, GOC 13 Brigade).....go to trench 36 and have good look at Hill 60. (This is the first mention of Hill 60 in his diaries).... Fergusson (Lt-General Sir Charles, GOC II Corps Jan. 1915 - May 1916) comes after lunch....and discuss operation against Hill 60 with him.

11.4.15.......get good view of Hill 60 (from trench 39).

12.4.15..........visit O'Gowan and discuss attack.

15.4.15........see rehearsal of attack on Hill 60 carried out.

16.4.15.......see O'Gowan......final talk re attack.

17.4.15.......7pm....mines successfully exploded under Hill 60 - heavy bombardment and hill captured.....counter-attacks repulsed.

5.515 (letter to daughter)....The Germans employed their beastly gases again on Hill 60.....and got us off the hill..........what swine these Germans are!

So - Morland does not spell out in his diaries when the decision to attack Hill 60 was taken. However, he was a very guarded man, possibly secretive and did not always confide his thoughts to his diaries.  He may have deliberately omitted some details from his diary in case it fell in to the wrong hands. The diaries would have been more interesting if he had been as expansive as, say, Maxse. However it is probably safe to say that the decision had been taken by 9.4.15. I don't have the war diaries to hand, but I would have expected an entry therein specifying when the decision was taken.

Hope the above helps - Bill Thompson

 

 

[brianmorris547]

David

According to the WD of 28 Div HQ GS, if I remember correctly, there was a conference at 5 Corps HQ on 01/03/1915. It was probably more to do with St Eloi and the Mound. Reports in the WD suggest that the Corps Commander was not satisfied with progress, including Tunnelling, during March. Could it be that the decision to attack and hold Hill 60 was made in conjunction with the Ops at St Eloi and the Mound. 

Brian

[David_Blanchard]

Could be will have to have a look.

 

David