Could the same physical medal be presented twice?

[Martin Rob]

My Grandfather served in the 16th Battalion KRRC (Church Lads Brigade). He was awarded the military medal for action on 20th May 1917 on the Hindenburg line. The war diary states he received his medal ribbon on 24 June by the Corps Commander and his medal on 3 October 1917 by the Commander in Chief. However, after the war, on 21 May 1919 he was again awarded the (same) medal by King George V at Cadburys Sports Ground in Birmingham.  Would he just have handed it back to his regiment to be re-presented by the King?  Would this have been normal practice in such circumstances? 

[caulkheader]

Could there possibly be some confusion regards the second ‘award’?

Maybe HE was presented to the King as an award winner.

[Ivor Anderson]

Hi Martin, What is his name and service number?

[Martin Rob]

Hi, he was Riflemen Francis Frank Clarke C/760. The newspapers of the day stated -Medals presented by King George V at Cadburys Sports Ground on his visit to Birmingham on 21 May 1919. “During the afternoon tour of their Majesties the King will present medals to twenty N.C.O.s and men resident in Selly Oak and Bournville, the list of recipients and their awards being as follow:- M.M.s .. Rifleman F. Clarke (KRRC).. “  (Birmingham Daily Gazette Wed 21 May 1919); “His Majesty afterwards conferred a number of decorations on local soldiers” (Birmingham Daily Gazette Thu 22 May 1919). “A few minutes later whilst the Queen chatted with Mrs Cadbury, the King was busy pinning to the breasts of a score of soldiers living in Selly Oak and Bournville the medals they had won before peace brought them home. ..Military Medals to … Rifleman F Clarke..” (Daily News (London) 22 May 1919).   

[Ivor Anderson]

OK, thanks. MM gazetted 18 July 1917: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30188/supplement/7277     MM schedule no. 93686

His MM index card confirms the LG search that he was not awarded a bar. The war diary is clear about the ribbon presentation on 24 June 1917.

It certainly also appears to state that the actual MM was presented to him by the C in C on 3rd October 1917. If it was for the 20th May then it was for gallantry during a major action that incurred significant casualties to his Bn., although rare to have the actual medal presented by such a high level figure during war time. C/66 Pte. Tom Hartley is in the same gazette. His schedule no. was 93692, so they must have been selected representatives of those awarded MMs as the nos. are not consecutive. It was a Brigade inspection so men from other units may also have been presented.

Assuming that it was the actual medal in Oct. 1917, he must have agreed to be locally recognised by having it re-presented by the King in 1919.

The others must have been having theirs presented by the King for the first time, as I understood that most MMs were not issued until 1919.

Edited 4 December , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Martin Rob]

Many thanks Ivor.  That does seem a logical answer which was evading me! A secondary thought is that my Mum did say her father had said to her that the MM award was not just for him but for his colleagues as well. That would lend weight to your explanation.

Thanks again, Martin

    

[Ivor Anderson]

If his actual medal was presented to him by Douglas Haig in 1917 and then represented by King George V in 1919 it was a very rare set of circumstances! 

MMs were usually posted home, but the option to have them personally presented 'circumstances permitting' was a choice available to the recipient.

 

[Martin Rob]

Ivor, further to your mention of a "Brigade" presentation (which I had not realised thinking it was "Battalion" and failing to pick this up from the war diary), I have now checked the 100th Brigade war diary. This shows 3 October 1917 – 11.45am The Commander in Chief Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig KT GCB GCVO KCIE ADC inspected the brigade in a field near Sercus and presented medal ribbons to a number of recipients. The Brigade was drawn up on three sides of a square each battalion in two columns of half companies, M Gun Coy, TM Btty, Bde H’Q’s, 101^st Field Amb and No 4 Coy train in line. After the inspection the troops marched past in fours and the C in C expressed his satisfaction at seeing the Brigade to the Brigader General.”

So, it was a presentation by the C in C of a ribbon rather than the actual medal!  I suppose that begs the next question, did my grandfather receive the same medal ribbon twice at Battalion and Brigade presentations , or would he have got a second ribbon?        

[Ivor Anderson]

Hi Martin, That settles it then. The wording in the battalion WD just equated the presentation of the ribbon with getting the actual medal.

The fact that it was presented by the C in C left the possibility of it being his actual medal open, but getting an inscribed medal to the recipient (or him getting it safely home) during wartime sounded strange. Most official medal presentations were made back home. In the field, ribbons were the norm, anonymous and easily transported, so I don't think it is important to know whether it was his initial one being represented, even though that is likely, unless he'd lost it.

Ivor

Edited 8 December , 2021 by Ivor Anderson
Additional information

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

2 hours ago, Martin Rob said:

So, it was a presentation by the C in C of a ribbon rather than the actual medal!  I suppose that begs the next question, did my grandfather receive the same medal ribbon twice at Battalion and Brigade presentations , or would he have got a second ribbon? 

I presume the initial award of " ribbons" by tge C-i-C, meant  the small 1" x 3/8" (or thereabours) ribbon patch meant to be sewn onto the  soldier's tunic, not the actual 6 or 8" (or thereabouts) ribbon that the medal would eventually suspend on.

The medal, and the  full length ribbon would be what was presented by the King at Cadbury's.

Edited 8 December , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Martin Rob]

A follow on to when medals were issued -  "as I understood that most MMs were not issued until 1919". 

I have now seen a copy of the Bournville Works magazine covering the 21 May 1919 King George V presentations. The King said to Major Egbert Cadbury DSC, DFC, (who was responsible for bringing down two zeppelins) that he "was sorry that no examples of the Distinguished Flying Cross had yet been struck. When they are ready I hope to have an opportunity of decorating you with that distinction". 

So presumably medals were struck in some kind of order after the war.