Medals in general

[RMP]

My maternal great grandfather Cpl Jesse Wilton who served with the Notts and Derby Regt during WW1 was executed on 16th Aug 1916, but I cannot find a medal record card relating to his military service, even though he was ' Shot at Dawn ', and pardoned in 2009 would he have been entitled to any medals.

[clk]

Hi RMP,

My understanding is that the medal rolls/MIC's were drawn up for the purpose of establishing entitlement and administering medals that were issued. I suspect that given Jesse was a SAD case he would have been deemed to have forfeited any medal entitlement at the time, and that is why you can't find any evidence of any actual medal issue to your family. Given his pardon in 2009, I would be interested to know if you/his closest surviving kin could make a retrospective claim for them to be issued. Might it be worth contacting the medal office?

Good luck.

Regards
Chris

[Keith_history_buff]

I got the impression that medals that were issued by the War Office, yet were "returned to sender - address unknown" were the only instances where replacement WW1 medals would be issued in the present day. On that basis, I do not believe this soldier would be eligible.

I am sure that I have seen one man on a 1914 Star medal roll who was executed by firing squad, this latter fact being documented on said medal roll.

[Keith_history_buff]

I can't locate that person that I thought I had come across. It seems likely that I may have come across 11490 Thomas Henry Basil Rigby or 15134 Anthony O'Neil. Neither is on the 1914 Star roll, but they do have medal index cards.

Of the 200 or so men in the following listing, they seemed to have medal index cards associated with them.
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/community/1889/?page=10

The list of the 306 men is on this website:
https://www.privatepeaceful.net/shot-at-dawn

I believe they, and their associated regiments, are on the first page of this thread 

 

[Interested]

That for me begs the question - would you expect that every soldier in Service between 1914 and 1918, whether serving overseas or at home have a medal card?

[ss002d6252]

16 minutes ago, Interested said:

That for me begs the question - would you expect that every soldier in Service between 1914 and 1918, whether serving overseas or at home have a medal card?

Home service, except in certain cases, did not create a medal entitlement and so there was no need for a medal card.

Craig

[RaySearching]

Not forgetting that not every  soldier who served abroad has a medal index card, some have been lost or misplaced with the passage of time

although their medal entitlement can be found on the medal rolls 

 

Ray

[Interested]

Thanks for the clarification.  Every day's a school day.

[Keith_history_buff]

I have just taken a look at the BWM & VM roll for the Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment), which is in service number sequence. (Archive reference WO 329/1388)

The last name on folio 1633B is 23964 Samuel Bagshaw, who has been researched by the GWF's own correspondent in Matlock, Derbyshire. On the successive page, folio 1634B, is the first entry of 23974 Walter Tunnicliffe. I would have expected Wilton's name to have been on the roll. Other men with similar numbers finished up in other regiments and are therefore on the respective rolls elsewhere.

[james_harvey]

If the medals were returned you should now be able to claim them if not then the NoK can

 

i have just been told my great grandfathers pair will now be reissued as they were returned.

 

this makes 3 relatives ww1 medals I have now reclaimed 

 

another great grandfathers victory medal and my 2x great uncles ww1 pair who was Kia and the medals never claimed

[thetrenchrat22]

On 20/11/2021 at 17:55, RMP said:

My maternal great grandfather Cpl Jesse Wilton who served with the Notts and Derby Regt during WW1 was executed on 16th Aug 1916, but I cannot find a medal record card relating to his military service, even though he was ' Shot at Dawn ', and pardoned in 2009 would he have been entitled to any medals.

I’ve seen a couple of medals cards for those from the Cheshire Regiment who were shot at dawn.  
 

I know that last year on either Facebook or Twitter, that someone put up a petition to have medals issued to the next of kin who were shot at dawn.  But it was rejected as it was worded wrong
 

back in the 70’s and 80’s members of the armed forces who were found to be gay, fortified their medals.  In 2020, the medals were returned to them. 
 

therefore if the fortified medals, were reissued to those who were found to be gay in the 70’s & 80’s.  

Therefore the fortified medals issued to those who were shot at dawn, should be reissued 

 

 

 

 

[RMP]

I totally agree with the point that you have made. But I think dereliction of duty or desertion, what ever they want to call it in war could be seen as a more serious offence than that of being gay.

 

These soldiers were scared to death of dying, just like the soldiers after them, me being one, so they would have done anything to stop that from happening. The British Goverment pardoned those who were executed in 2006, so WHY can they not be allowed the right to be postumously awarded there medals.

[RMP]

4 hours ago, james_harvey said:

If the medals were returned you should now be able to claim them if not then the NoK can

 

i have just been told my great grandfathers pair will now be reissued as they were returned.

 

this makes 3 relatives ww1 medals I have now reclaimed 

 

another great grandfathers victory medal and my 2x great uncles ww1 pair who was Kia and the medals never claimed

I am Jesse's great grandson, would I be able to apply for these via Glasgow ?

[TEW]

.Gov website currently says for WWI medals:

You can only apply if the medal was returned, and you can provide a medal card or roll which includes this information.

TEW

[james_harvey]

Yes if the medal index card shows returned then you may be able to claim

 

a lot were pardoned as some of the trials were not legally sound so to save going through all the cases they were all pardoned.

Best of luck in your quest, if you need help please PM me as I have successfully claimed 3 of my own relatives ww1 medals and have helped over 50 people to date claim returned medals.

 

it is a hard process as the burden is on the person applying to prove they were returned as the medal office will review the evidence and then make a decision 

regards

james

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, RMP said:

I am Jesse's great grandson, would I be able to apply for these via Glasgow ?

It’s the Medal Office at Innsworth Barracks Gloucestershire 

best PM me and I can guide you through  the process

[TEW]

How is the OP going to prove the medals were returned when there's no MIC or Roll? Plus, no medals would have been issued and sent for this scenario.

I doubt he ever made it onto a roll so would not have had a MIC either. Possibly there could be a crossed out entry with 'forfeited'.  Not sure why 'medals returned' is being entertained.

TEW

[james_harvey]

If there is no mic or roll then he cannot claim

as I said the applicant must prove the medals were previously awarded and were returned for them to be reissued 

if they were not issued or in the case of officers claimed for at the time then the MoD will not issue as the closing date for ww1 medals was back in the 90’s

regards

James

 

[Gardenerbill]

15 hours ago, RMP said:

I totally agree with the point that you have made. But I think dereliction of duty or desertion, what ever they want to call it in war could be seen as a more serious offence than that of being gay.

 

These soldiers were scared to death of dying, just like the soldiers after them, me being one, so they would have done anything to stop that from happening. The British Goverment pardoned those who were executed in 2006, so WHY can they not be allowed the right to be postumously awarded there medals.

Can I just say being gay and desertion are 2 entirely different things; a deserter chose to break the rules whereas gay people do not choose to be gay.

[Keith_history_buff]

12 hours ago, TEW said:

How is the OP going to prove the medals were returned when there's no MIC or Roll? Plus, no medals would have been issued and sent for this scenario.

I doubt he ever made it onto a roll so would not have had a MIC either. Possibly there could be a crossed out entry with 'forfeited'.  Not sure why 'medals returned' is being entertained.

TEW

Completely agree 100% with this post. You can't ask for what was never sent out to be "returned". The same applies for officers who died in WW1 for whom a claim was never made.

[RMP]

1 hour ago, Gardenerbill said:

Can I just say being gay and desertion are 2 entirely different things; a deserter chose to break the rules whereas gay people do not choose to be gay.

I was not being homophobic mate. I'm not scared of my house.

[james_harvey]

This is why they were pardoned

the youngest was 16 and was underaged when joined

another case was someone who served 1914-17 without a break at the front and won the MM

he broke under what was now known as shell shock or PTSD, Haig personally signed the death sentence to make an example

 

yes there were some genuine cases but also an awful lot of miscarriages of justice without proper legal representation, these cases were overturned and then they overturned all of them 

 

 

[TEW]

I had a look at some older posts on the subject which quoted the official wording of the pardons. Could not find the original 'official' source but the gist of it is that the pardons were conditional in the sense that only the sentence was deemed to be pardoned.

The original charge and the CM proceedings were not part of the pardon so those that were did not have their sentences quashed.

If the quoted (but not found) original source Is correct they are still guilty of the charges and no fault was determined within the proceedings.

TEW

[Gardenerbill]

2 hours ago, RMP said:

I was not being homophobic mate. I'm not scared of my house.

Yes I know, you could argue that a gay person joining the army back then knew the rules, onerous as they were.

[Andrew Upton]

5 hours ago, TEW said:

I had a look at some older posts on the subject which quoted the official wording of the pardons. Could not find the original 'official' source but the gist of it is that the pardons were conditional in the sense that only the sentence was deemed to be pardoned.

The original charge and the CM proceedings were not part of the pardon so those that were did not have their sentences quashed.

If the quoted (but not found) original source Is correct they are still guilty of the charges and no fault was determined within the proceedings.

TEW

They were pardoned under the Armed Forces Act 2006:

Armed Forces Act 2006 - Wikipedia

"However section 359(4) states that the pardon "does not affect any conviction or sentence." Since the nature of a pardon is normally to commute a sentence, Gerald Howarth MP asked during parliamentary debate: "we are entitled to ask what it does do."^[5] It would appear to be a symbolic pardon only, and some members of Parliament had called for the convictions to be quashed, although the pardon has still been welcomed by relatives of executed soldiers."