George Noble Willis - RFA 54891

[PRC]

Just checking that no-one else is working on this.

Earlier this evening while trying to do a near number search I came across this individual who appears likely to be a missed commemoration.

George Noble Willis has surviving records which shows he enlisted on the 18th December 1914 at Shoreditch and was a 25 year old married Electrical Box Worker living at 9 Hows Street, Kingsland Road, London. He initially reported to 4 Depot RFA at Woolwich. On the 4th January 1915 he was posted to D Battery, 105 Brigade at Aldershot. George was treated in the Connaught Hospital, Aldershot from the 6th February 1915 to the 27th February 1915 where a diagnosis of Tubercle on Lung was reached and that if not caused it had been aggravated by service. Post discharge he went to The Downs Sanatorium, Sutton, Surrey. He died on the 4th October 1918. The report of the medical board is:-

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

Others may have seen the boards reasoning in other cases, but for me it was very interesting how much weight was placed on the first months of training as the rationale for stating Army Service aggravated any TB infection.

The death of a 29 year old George N. Willis was registered in the Hampstead District of London in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1918. There is no obvious civil probate for him.

I also assume as he died before the award of the War Gratuity there will be an entry for him in the Register of Soldiers Effects - if only to say he didn't qualify as he had less than 3 months service.

Cheers,
Peter

[RussT]

I can't see a Soldier Effects Record entry for him - I assume any remaining credit he might have had was paid out to him well before he died.

Here are his Pension Cards ....

Russ

 

[PRC]

Thanks @RussT, very much appreciated

27 minutes ago, RussT said:

I can't see a Soldier Effects Record entry for him - I assume any remaining credit he might have had was paid out to him well before he died.

On another one of these non-commemoration threads Craig posted "It should always be the case that a death before the end of 1918 shows in the effects as they had to retrospectively apply the war gratuity to those already deceased after discharge."

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/293265-one-frederick-smith-non-comm-or-two/?do=findComment&comment=3050696

In this case, with less than three months served, there shouldn't be any entitlement, but that doesn't seem to stop there being any entry for those who died while still in uniform. You'd hope administrative process would at least be consistant

Cheers,
Peter

[PaulC78]

He's not on the IFCP list. There appears to be a burial record on DeceasedOnline.

[PRC]

10 minutes ago, PaulC78 said:

He's not on the IFCP list.

Thanks for checking Paul. I may have to give uo doing near numbers searches - they are proving too expensive

11 minutes ago, PaulC78 said:

There appears to be a burial record on DeceasedOnline.

@chrisharley9 could you help at all with this one?

Thanks,
Peter

[chrisharley9]

E mail sent to Peter with burial register.

 

Chris

[PRC]

On 04/11/2021 at 13:37, chrisharley9 said:

E mail sent to Peter with burial register.

Thanks Chris.

Details received. Certificate requested. Cause of death awaited!

Peter

[ss002d6252]

On 03/11/2021 at 23:18, PRC said:

Thanks @RussT, very much appreciated

On another one of these non-commemoration threads Craig posted "It should always be the case that a death before the end of 1918 shows in the effects as they had to retrospectively apply the war gratuity to those already deceased after discharge."

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/293265-one-frederick-smith-non-comm-or-two/?do=findComment&comment=3050696

 

 

In this case, with less than three months served, there shouldn't be any entitlement, but that doesn't seem to stop there being any entry for those who died while still in uniform. You'd hope administrative process would at least be consistant

Cheers,
Peter

In theory there should be an entry to say they didn't qualify. As it was well after discharge unless someone told them of the death there's typically no trigger to check back anyway though so the entries don't get made (or really need to be, in this case, as there was no entitlement or monies due).

Craig

[PRC]

Finally got round to checking the death certificate.

Died at the North Western Hospital, Hampstead on the 4th October 1918 from Pulmonary Tuberculosis, a condition he had had for three years. Present at his death was his wife Daisy Willis, of 9 Hows Street, Shoreditch. Known to be buried at Manor Park Cemetery thanks to @chrisharley9

Only slight doubt is that while he is stated in his Service Record to have been discharged as medically unfit and at the time of his discharge was an in-patient at the Connaught Hospital, Aldershot, being treated for Tubercle of Lung, the Kings Regs quoted is for "Not likely to become an efficient soldier".

However case submitted this morning, and fingers are now crossed.

Peter

[PRC]

Had an odd e-mail today giving me a reference number, without any comment on whether CWGC had sufficient information to pass on to the JCC. It also appears they had an internal reference number which was not shared previously.

Thank you for your submission of a Non-Commemoration case, received by the CWGC Enquiries Team (00120446). Our apologies for the delay in acknowledging this, which is due to staff turnover.

I am writing to confirm receipt and provide you with the relevant reference number:

Non-Commemoration Case Number 11425 - Driver George Noble Willis

So that would mean we've got to Day 60 and I'm still not clear where exactly we have got to

E-mail query sent.

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

Clarification received - case meets the basic criteria so now in the system for consideration of it's merits

Also that CWGC have tweaked things and so the case reference system will no longer use Service arm as part the reference. From what I've been sent it reads this has been retrospectively applied to all cases still in the system.

Cheers,
Peter.

[Matlock1418]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

Clarification received - case meets the basic criteria so now in the system for consideration of it's merits

Hi Peter - that does seem positive [as a starting point].  But exactly where is it now in the evaluation process?

In my experience CWGC seem to make an initial decision without any reference to JCCC, possibly even a two-stage evaluation - so JCCC seem to potentially not even get the chance to consider some commemoration applications ???

Did CWGC say exactly what they had undertaken?

What had they agreed was the meeting the basic requirements?

Did they report it had gone to JCCC?

And whose case number was that 11425 - CWGC's and/or JCCC's? [Does it get just one case reference? - or does it get several dependant upon who is processsing?]

All of interest due my own TB victim case applications.

All the best.

M

 

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

In my experience CWGC seem to make an initial decision without any reference to JCCC, possibly even a two-stage evaluation - so JCCC seem to potentially not even get the chance to consider some commemoration applications ???

That's what I've always wondered - who makes the initial sift ?

Craig

[PRC]

My limited understanding, and I'm no expert, is that there is a low level check to make sure that death occurred within the prescribed period for CWGC to recognise as among the war dead, and that the individual concerned had served or was serving as a member of a unit that fell within their remit.

I don't know how much validation is done of the attached documentation - probably no more than to check it is what the submitter said it was and there is name agreement.

That would all be basic tick the box stuff and would be the first hurdle to get over. It then gets passed over to a "Case-Officer-led review", (wording from the latest e-mail).

So effectively the CWGC have told me I've passed the first hurdle and have supplied sufficent & consistant evidence that means that there is a case to be decided on. It does not mean that the CWGC have decided he is a missed commemoration, just that he's ticked enough boxes to be worth looking at in more detail.

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

My limited understanding, and I'm no expert, is that there is a low level check to make sure that death occurred within the prescribed period for CWGC to recognise as among the war dead, and that the individual concerned had served or was serving as a member of a unit that fell within their remit.

I don't know how much validation is done of the attached documentation - probably no more than to check it is what the submitter said it was and there is name agreement.

That would all be basic tick the box stuff and would be the first hurdle to get over. It then gets passed over to a "Case-Officer-led review", (wording from the latest e-mail).

So effectively the CWGC have told me I've passed the first hurdle and have supplied sufficent & consistant evidence that means that there is a case to be decided on. It does not mean that the CWGC have decided he is a missed commemoration, just that he's ticked enough boxes to be worth looking at in more detail.

So I guess Peter, your feeling is that it has only been looked at by CWGC [stage 1] and is still with CWGC [for stage 2] but gone nowhere near JCCC ???

[My apologies if I have interpreted things wrong or tried to put words in your mouth :-/]

I have no idea who the "Case Officer" might be - CWGC or JCCC.

???

I suppose CWGC have a procedure / know what they are to do and when but it is a shame they do not have a clear and comprehensive guide for the public who might consider submitting a case and a more transparent progress process and adjudication process with full details on outcome for the public who actually submit a case.

Why the secrecy?  One wonders if they are afraid of public / peer reviews [and perhaps challenges]?? Or afraid of receiving even more cases for consideration [And, heaven forfend, perhaps more commemorations] ???  = All seems rather strange given their Charter and remit.

M

Edited 27 January , 2022 by Matlock1418
remove details for later re-presentation

[PRC]

George has been added today to the WW1 Roll of Honour.

CWGC link https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/75467897/george-noble-willis/

Day 348 since the original submission.

Rest in peace
Peter

[Matlock1418]

19 hours ago, PRC said:

George has been added today to the WW1 Roll of Honour.

Very pleased he has been accepted 

19 hours ago, PRC said:

Day 348 since the original submission.

Very good going, I suspect due to a good presentation of case. 

M

[PRC]

And I had official notification earlier this afternoon that he'd been accepted and an entry created for him on the CWGC database, so thanks to CWGC for letting me know.

Cheers,
Peter