Black Watch

[Claire Bhela]

Good evening, hope everyone is well. I am seeking a bit of help or guidance as previously you have all been amazing. 
I was chatting to a lovely chap at work regarding WW1 research - he had done a little but I had offered to have a look on Ancestry. Annoying it’s not turned up much, but does seem that the info is available but on an external link called Fold3.com

Have I missed something on Ancestry or is their another way to help this lovely man. 
 

many thanks 

C

[jonbem]

Fold3 is part of Ancestry, but seperate as far as subscription is concerned. You need to pay extra!.

It does have a short free trial option I believe, but after that keep an eye out for "free weekends" or the like that they have on occasions.

They tend to be on such as US Memorial Day or the like, but sometimes they only include American records on the free times.

[Claire Bhela]

I saw the free trial- just a little nervous of doing so incase it’s a pain to cancel after the 7days 

[Matlock1418]

David SCOTT, 9441, Royal Highlanders

The WFA/Fold3 pension cards in this case are actually not massively detailed.

Here is the most complete one:

Image courtesy of WFA/Fold3

Shows that his widow, Christina, b. 1883, applied for an Alternative Pension Widows [APW / AP] which would have been based on his proven pre-service earning but the Standard Pension [SP] seemingly worked out greater at that time.

The other cards just show his widow lived at 62 Mid Street, Lochgelly, Fife [as CWGC]

The main pension file is lost/was deliberately destroyed and the back of one card shows the file was destroyed on 3/5/65 [one suspects this might perhaps be about when/after she died - the children presumably having. certainly typically, long previously become ineligible for an allowances when reaching 16y]

:-) M

Edited 3 November , 2021 by Matlock1418
clarify

[Matlock1418]

David SCOTT, 9441, Royal Highlanders

A very basic [always free] account with Ancestry shows his Medal Index Card [in colour] - also available from the National Archives [in B/w] - also currently free after free registration with them https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5055630

Records that he Died of Wounds having landed in his first theatre of war [presumably France & Flanders] 13.8.14 - his Battalion and number at that date would suggest that he was already in the Army as a Regular soldier = eligible for 1914 Star, with clasp [as had been under fire - often called a 'Mons Star'], British War Medal and Victory Medal

:-) M

Edit: Ancestry also have a transcripted entry for Soldiers Died in the Great War [but no image]

Name:	David Scott
Birth Place:	Auchterderran, Fifeshire
Death Date:	27 Oct 1914
Death Place:	France and Flanders
Enlistment Place:	Dunfermline, Fifeshire
Rank:	L Corporal
Regiment:	Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)
Battalion:	1st Battalion
Regimental Number:	9441
Type of Casualty:	Died of wounds
Theatre of War:	Western European Theatre

And his Register of Soldier's Effects entry

Image courtesy of Ancestry

Edited 3 November , 2021 by Matlock1418
edit

[rolt968]

It looks to me as if he was a regular or recalled army reservist.

You might like to look at this page to see when the serial number was probably issued.

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2011/08/black-watch-royal-highlanders-1st-2nd.html

I've quite a bit more to advise, but am checking a few things.

Do we know his wife/widow's maiden surname?

Edited 3 November , 2021 by rolt968

[Claire Bhela]

Many thanks for your help- I did look for his medal index through NA- weirdly found every other David Scott, but not the ‘right one’ ( at their is another David Scott from the some town b1878 tho. The gent that I am helping said that the family thought he was in the army previously, then re enlisted in ww1. 
The census records show he was a miner - and with the soliders effects list, shows he first enlisted  in 1904. 

3 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

It looks to me as if he was a regular or ecalled army reservist.

You might like to look at this page to see when the serial number was probably issued.

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2011/08/black-watch-royal-highlanders-1st-2nd.html

I've quite a bit more to advise, but am checking a few things.

Do we know his wife/widow's maiden surname?

Hey, thanks- his wife is Christine Christie Primrose . Off the top of my head they married in 1909. 

[Fattyowls]

Hi Claire

This is not related to the Ancestry/Fold3 information but it may be interest to your friend as where he is buried is of significance, to me at least.

David Scott is buried in Ypres Town cemetery as your records show; in this photo, which is from the CWGC site for the cemetery, David is eight from the end of the 2nd row. Just to the left of the picture you can just se a grave under the trees opposite the end of Row 1.

This grave and that of David Scott a matter of feet away are an illustration of the guiding principles of the Imperial War Graves Commission and its successor the CWGC. The separate grave is that of Lt. Maurice Battenberg of the 1st King's Royal Rifle Corps, killed on the same day as David. He was 23 and the youngest grandson of Queen Victoria, and cousin of King George V; dispite the disparity in social status the man from Lochgelly in Fife and the prince of the blood royal have the same design of headstone. Maurice's mother pleaded with the King to have her boy returned to England to be buried but he steadfastly refused;  he upheld the principle that the fallen should be buried with their comrades near where they died and that there should be equality in death.

Pete.

 

 

[Matlock1418]

Close up of David Scott's headstone available from The War Graves Photographic Project  https://www.twgpp.org/photograph/view/3039111 

:-) M

Edit: Find a Grave unfortunately do not have a photo of his headstone but they appear to have a photo of a Memorial Plaque / 'Dead Man's Penny' which has his name. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/12736563/david-scott

We can't tell if this is his, or of another of the David Scotts who died, as they were not specifically numbered or otherwise more clearly identified but it is indicative of the sort of plaque that was sent to relatives - along with a Commemorative Scroll

Edited 3 November , 2021 by Matlock1418
edit

[rolt968]

11 minutes ago, Claire Bhela said:

Many thanks for your help- I did look for his medal index through NA- weirdly found every other David Scott, but not the ‘right one’ ( at their is another David Scott from the some town b1878 tho. The gent that I am helping said that the family thought he was in the army previously, then re enlisted in ww1. 
The census records show he was a miner - and with the soliders effects list, shows he first enlisted  in 1904. 

Hey, thanks- his wife is Christine Christie Primrose . Off the top of my head they married in 1909. 

Yes! 1909 in Lumphinnans in Fife. (Scotlandspeople index). It may eventually be useful to look at the marriage record as it will say what he was at the time he married.

I have found his MIC on ancestry. You can download it free from the National Archives or indeed free from ancestry.  he landed in France on 13 August 1918 (with the first contingent of 1 Black Watch). The war diary of 1 Black Watch can be downloaded (at present) free. However it won't help you much for what happened on 27 October 1914 as the original war diary was lost. The best source is Wauchope's History of the Black Watch in the Great War which does have a good account of what happened around 27 October 1914. Do you have access to a good library?

RM

[Claire Bhela]

31 minutes ago, Fattyowls said:

Hi Claire

This is not related to the Ancestry/Fold3 information but it may be interest to your friend as where he is buried is of significance, to me at least.

David Scott is buried in Ypres Town cemetery as your records show; in this photo, which is from the CWGC site for the cemetery, David is eight from the end of the 2nd row. Just to the left of the picture you can just se a grave under the trees opposite the end of Row 1.

This grave and that of David Scott a matter of feet away are an illustration of the guiding principles of the Imperial War Graves Commission and its successor the CWGC. The separate grave is that of Lt. Maurice Battenberg of the 1st King's Royal Rifle Corps, killed on the same day as David. He was 23 and the youngest grandson of Queen Victoria, and cousin of King George V; dispite the disparity in social status the man from Lochgelly in Fife and the prince of the blood royal have the same design of headstone. Maurice's mother pleaded with the King to have her boy returned to England to be buried but he steadfastly refused;  he upheld the principle that the fallen should be buried with their comrades near where they died and that there should be equality in death.

Pete.

 

Made me feel somewhat emotional x

[Claire Bhela]

19 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

Yes! 1909 in Lumphinnans in Fife. (Scotlandspeople index). It may eventually be useful to look at the marriage record as it will say what he was at the time he married.

I have found his MIC on ancestry. You can download it free from the National Archives or indeed free from ancestry.  he landed in France on 13 August 1918 (with the first contingent of 1 Black Watch). The war diary of 1 Black Watch can be downloaded (at present) free. However it won't help you much for what happened on 27 October 1914 as the original war diary was lost. The best source is Wauchope's History of the Black Watch in the Great War which does have a good account of what happened around 27 October 1914. Do you have access to a good library?

RM

The marriage records has him listed as a ‘miner’. 
 

Sorry- did you mean ‘landed in France 13 Aug 1914’ 

[rolt968]

22 minutes ago, Claire Bhela said:

The marriage records has him listed as a ‘miner’. 
 

Sorry- did you mean ‘landed in France 13 Aug 1914’ 

Apologies, yes. 13 August 1914. I'm trying to think out the next step while typing up the last. Not a good idea!

They had three children. It's annoying, the names of the children usually appear on one of the Pension Cards, but not in this case. There is a tree on ancestry which looks reasonable at least for this bit - suggesting that they had two daughters, Bessie (1909) and Jessie Moyes (1911) but doesn't give the third child.

His serial number suggests that he enlisted early in 1903. He would have signed on for twelve years - a number of years served with  the colours and the remainder on the Army Reserve. His twelve years would have been up early in 1915. He would have been mobilised immediately in August 1914 and allocated to 1 Black Watch (in 1 Brigade, 1 Division). Like all home based battalions, 1 Black Watch was considerably under strength and needed recalled reservists to bring it up to strength.

RM

Edit: Someone else on the forum should be able tell you how many years service with the colours he was like to have done enlisting in 1903.  I think it was relative short, 3 or 4 years - leaving 9 or 8 in the reserve.

 

Edited 3 November , 2021 by rolt968

[rolt968]

1 Black Watch was sent to hold part of the Zandvoorde- Gheluveldt on 26 October 1914. They held their ground and entrenched at nightfall. A Company's position was heavily bombarded in the early hours of 27 October 1914, more than three quarters of the company becoming casualties. The battalion was relieved in the evening. Unfortunately the battalion was divided into two to fill two different gaps in the line (between Guards battalions, I think). (My summary of what appears in Wauchope.)

RM

[Claire Bhela]

20 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

Apologies, yes. 13 August 1914. I'm trying to think out the next step while typing up the last. Not a good idea!

They had three children. It's annoying, the names of the children usually appear on one of the Pension Cards, but not in this case. There is a tree on ancestry which looks reasonable at least for this bit - suggesting that they had two daughters, Bessie (1909) and Jessie Moyes (1911) but doesn't give the third child.

His serial number suggests that he enlisted early in 1903. He would have signed on for twelve years - a number of years served with  the colours and the remainder on the Army Reserve. His twelve years would have been up early in 1915. He would have been mobilised immediately in August 1914 and allocated to 1 Black Watch (in 1 Brigade, 1 Division). Like all home based battalions, 1 Black Watch was considerably under strength and needed recalled reservists to bring it up to strength.

RM

Edit: Someone else on the forum should be able tell you how many years service with the colours he was like to have done enlisting in 1903.  I think it was relative short, 3 or 4 years - leaving 9 or 8 in the reserve.

 

I started a small tree on Ancestry to help this lovely chap- also easier to help with the research. I can look through Scotlands people index to see if I can find the third child. I note that other  ancestry trees only have one child on record. Defiantly two- was surprised to find three. 

 

6 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

1 Black Watch was sent to hold part of the Zandvoorde- Gheluveldt on 26 October 1914. They held their ground and entrenched at nightfall. A Company's position was heavily bombarded in the early hours of 27 October 1914, more than three quarters of the company becoming casualties. The battalion was relieved in the evening. Unfortunately the battalion was divided into two to fill two different gaps in the line (between Guards battalions, I think). (My summary of what appears in Wauchope.)

RM

such heavy losses! My chap is currently in the Scots Guards- reading these stories never gets easier 

[rolt968]

His name did not appear on an officially published casualty list until 11 February 1915. He was on a casualty list which was compiled on 25 November 1914.

Although you don't have any exact evidence of where he was 1 Black Watch fought at Mons, First Battle of the Marne, First Battle of the Aisne and the First Battle of Ypres where David Scott died.

Unfortunately since David Scott died of his wounds rather than was killed in action, it may be that he was wounded some time before 27 October 1914.

RM

Edit: Wauchope and the Death Record say he died of wounds. The casualty list says "died". The Registersof Soldiers' Effects says "in action".

Edited 3 November , 2021 by rolt968

[rolt968]

36 minutes ago, Claire Bhela said:

I started a small tree on Ancestry to help this lovely chap- also easier to help with the research. I can look through Scotlands people index to see if I can find the third child. I note that other  ancestry trees only have one child on record. Defiantly two- was surprised to find three. 

 

such heavy losses! My chap is currently in the Scots Guards- reading these stories never gets easier 

1 Scots Guards were also in 1 Brigade which was actually called 1 (Guards) Brigade, although only two of the four battalions were Guards.  The other non Guards brigade was originally 2 Royal Munster Fusiliers which was virtually wiped out in August 1914 at Etreux. It was replaced by 1 Cameron Highlanders.

The casualties among the regulars and recalled reservists in 1914 were dreadful.  I sometimes think the family tragedies resulting from the deaths of reservists is lost in what comes after. realtively few of the regulars were married, but many of the reservists had "sttled down", married and had families.

RM